Is there any sense in the core message of the Gospel?

[McCulloch]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

[Biker]

I am terminating dialogue with you, you do alot of condescending attacks toward me and offer no proof just ramblings.I wont be responding to your posts.Thanks for nothing Goat!

Meaning you couldn't prove him wrong so you're taking your marbles and going home. Sure, that makes a lot of sense. All you'd have to have done is actually PROVE that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies. The problem is, you can't, he didn't. And now you're mad at Goat for pointing it out.

Something tells me your anger is misplaced.

No, meaning no meaningful dialogue.Proof has already been established I just point it out, I have nothing to prove, nor does God. The truth is Jesus did fulfill those particular prophecies, plus many more, and is going to fulfill more in the near future.Not mad at Goat.Have no anger about it.
There is nothing "misplaced " on my part . So your 0 for 5 on your wrong assumptions!And I don't play with marbles, in fact I don't play!

Biker with a B

[Goat]

No, meaning no meaningful dialogue.Proof has already been established I just point it out, I have nothing to prove, nor does God. The truth is Jesus did fulfill those particular prophecies, plus many more, and is going to fulfill more in the near future.Not mad at Goat.Have no anger about it.
There is nothing "misplaced " on my part . So your 0 for 5 on your wrong assumptions!And I don't play with marbles, in fact I don't play!

Biker with a B

It has?? Really?? Where was this? I mean, I see CLAIMS by Christians, but those claims do not hold up when you look at those passages in context.

The methods I see of prophecy being fullfilled are as follows

1) Retroactive shoehorning.
2) After the fact prophecy.
3) Predicting the obvious.
4) Self fullfilling prophecies
5) False fullfillment (Or don't let the facts get in the way).


However, you can pack up your marbles, and go home in the complete conviction you are right.

[Biker]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

McCulloh
At your suggestion, I went back and read a few of your posts and threads and must say, it's definitely interesting , a bit like walking into the Adam's family mansion! Don't take as a negative, I love the Adam's family. Your posts are an interesting cocktail, for lack of a better term I'll borrow a song title from the 60's band Cream, Strange Brew. I like the song by the way. I hear rumblings in your arguments of Bayle here, Russell there, Camus over there. Pulletti shows up, Kant walks in, and oh Findlay peeks around the door from time to time. Pike pokes his head out from behind a curtain and Sartre's there too. Musn't forget McCloskey, he'd be blue. Even ol Sigmund Freud may stage a coup. I'm wondering, what do you believe really? Your arguments on behalf of Atheism are random samplings of various source's, which do you subscribe to, as it's difficult to tell, or is it all argument for argument's sake? Your assumptions about Christianity are based on inaccurate information. Your 1st statement on John 3:16 is inaccurate. Your 1st question assume's "More people" are not "saved". On what do you base that assumption? Your 2nd question assumes various things, explain why you assume them? Your 3rd question assumes "belief is necessary!" Explain. It assumes "God hasn't forgiven!" Explain.

Biker

[McCulloch]

Your 1st statement on John 3:16 is inaccurate. Your 1st question assume's "More people" are not "saved". On what do you base that assumption?

Among other things

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Your 2nd question assumes various things, explain why you assume them?

If you enumerate the various things I assume, then I will do my best to explain why I have come to those various assumptions.

Your 3rd question assumes "belief is necessary!" Explain. It assumes "God hasn't forgiven!" Explain.

An example of Christian teaching in that direction:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. )He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

[Biker]

Your 1st statement on John 3:16 is inaccurate. Your 1st question assume's "More people" are not "saved". On what do you base that assumption?

Among other things

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Your 2nd question assumes various things, explain why you assume them?

If you enumerate the various things I assume, then I will do my best to explain why I have come to those various assumptions.

Your 3rd question assumes "belief is necessary!" Explain. It assumes "God hasn't forgiven!" Explain.

An example of Christian teaching in that direction:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. )He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

That scripture isn't in Matt. 5. on question 1.Im very well aware what the bible says thats not what I asked.Question 2 You assume "God cannot avert His own wrath without sacrificing His only begotten Son ?"Why? explain.You assume "HE could not forgive without the sacrifice." Why, explain.

Biker

[wizanda]

If the start of this is based on some Pharisees own epinion (John3:16 and all John) and not a disciple or refrence of Yeshua him self how can someone else epinion.... who clearly stands against Yeshua's own by claiming any such thing as an inheritance, be held of any worth of the other gosepls?

[Confused]

Your 1st statement on John 3:16 is inaccurate. Your 1st question assume's "More people" are not "saved". On what do you base that assumption?

Among other things

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Your 2nd question assumes various things, explain why you assume them?

If you enumerate the various things I assume, then I will do my best to explain why I have come to those various assumptions.

Your 3rd question assumes "belief is necessary!" Explain. It assumes "God hasn't forgiven!" Explain.

An example of Christian teaching in that direction:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. )He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

That scripture isn't in Matt. 5. on question 1.Im very well aware what the bible says thats not what I asked.Question 2 You assume "God cannot avert His own wrath without sacrificing His only begotten Son ?"Why? explain.You assume "HE could not forgive without the sacrifice." Why, explain.

Biker

On Quest 1: it is Matthew 7:13.

On quest 2: If he could forgive without the sacrifice, then why the sacrifice. That is self explanatory I believe.

On quest 3: Mark 15: go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16: whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe wil be condemned.

[Biker]

Your 1st statement on John 3:16 is inaccurate. Your 1st question assume's "More people" are not "saved". On what do you base that assumption?

Among other things

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Your 2nd question assumes various things, explain why you assume them?

If you enumerate the various things I assume, then I will do my best to explain why I have come to those various assumptions.

Your 3rd question assumes "belief is necessary!" Explain. It assumes "God hasn't forgiven!" Explain.

An example of Christian teaching in that direction:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. )He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

That scripture isn't in Matt. 5. on question 1.Im very well aware what the bible says thats not what I asked.Question 2 You assume "God cannot avert His own wrath without sacrificing His only begotten Son ?"Why? explain.You assume "HE could not forgive without the sacrifice." Why, explain.

Biker

On Quest 1: it is Matthew 7:13.

On quest 2: If he could forgive without the sacrifice, then why the sacrifice. That is self explanatory I believe.

On quest 3: Mark 15: go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16: whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe wil be condemned.

As I said before, I am very well aware of what the bible say's. That is not my question's.

Biker

[Confused]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

McCulloh
At your suggestion, I went back and read a few of your posts and threads and must say, it's definitely interesting , a bit like walking into the Adam's family mansion! Don't take as a negative, I love the Adam's family. Your posts are an interesting cocktail, for lack of a better term I'll borrow a song title from the 60's band Cream, Strange Brew. I like the song by the way. I hear rumblings in your arguments of Bayle here, Russell there, Camus over there. Pulletti shows up, Kant walks in, and oh Findlay peeks around the door from time to time. Pike pokes his head out from behind a curtain and Sartre's there too. Musn't forget McCloskey, he'd be blue. Even ol Sigmund Freud may stage a coup. I'm wondering, what do you believe really? Your arguments on behalf of Atheism are random samplings of various source's, which do you subscribe to, as it's difficult to tell, or is it all argument for argument's sake? Your assumptions about Christianity are based on inaccurate information. Your 1st statement on John 3:16 is inaccurate. Your 1st question assume's "More people" are not "saved". On what do you base that assumption? Your 2nd question assumes various things, explain why you assume them? Your 3rd question assumes "belief is necessary!" Explain. It assumes "God hasn't forgiven!" Explain.

Biker

Let me take a stab at it, though McCulloh will likely be able to better than I.

1) If Christianity is the true faith of God, then why does it share it's popularity with 2 other predominant religions that refute christianity? In several of the apostles writings, references are made to how few will truly be saved and granted access to heaven. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few will find it.. I don't think anyone misinterprets this. It's simple, more will perish than be saved. So why didn't God come up with a plan that would save more than would perish?

2) Self explanatory. Why did God have to send Christ to forgive our sins??? Why couldn't he just forgive them?? Instead, he had a "son" born and crucified to show how much he loved man and how we were now forgiven for sins that in some cases occurred 5 generations before or more. Why did he need to tempt adam, allow sin to enter, curse all of man for eternity, then turn around and to overcome his own self-imposed law of "the sins of the father are visited upon the son" sacrifice his son. Why couldn't he just admit he made rash and unjustified judgement on all of mankind, he's sorry and now each man will be judged based on their own merits, not their parents?

3) Why do we need to believe in Christ to gain this forgiveness? Why the middleman? Is belief in God not enough? No: John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. The implication when combined with John 3:16 is that only those who beleive in Christ and his teachings will gain access to God and forgiveness.

I think broken down, these question are central to the core message. God is all knowing, all powerful. Why all the drama? Why not just say:" Hey, in the OT I portrayed myself as an a@@H### and it was just because I was pissed off. I made a harsh judgement that wasn't very fair to mankind. Instead, lets try this.....?

[McCulloch]

1) If Christianity is the true faith of God, then why will more will perish than be saved. So why didn't God come up with a plan that would save more than would perish?

2) Why did God have to send Christ to forgive our sins? Why couldn't he just forgive them? Jesus said that he had the authority on earth to forgive sins. Why was a sacrifice necessary?

3) Why do we need to believe in God to gain this forgiveness? Why should God care what we believe? But even if God does want us to believe in him, why would he plant evidence contrary to his own story? He says that he created the universe in six days, some several thousand years ago but he also created stars from which the light could not have reached Earth for several millions of years.