Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[Goat]

I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.

Yes, but only in pointing out some of areas of your belief that will not seem proper to many.

1) God created all beings. He knew what their choices will be before he created the universe.

2) God will then condemn or reward all beings based on their choices, which he knew would happen before he created the universe.

If God created the universe differently, we could have made different choices.

This eliminates us 'making choices', since God knew what choices everyone would make for the entire history of the universe even before he created the universe.

IF you believe that God knows what choices we will make, you eliminate 'free will'. That makes the punishments of God capricious at the very best.

How does God creating the universe differently cause us to make different choices? Unless you can demonstrate that God is the cause of your choices then you haven't eliminated free will.

Because God knew exactly how things will turn out with his creation before he created it. GOd could have created the universe so we would have made different choices... after all, he is all powerful, according to you.

There are numerous ways out of the condundrum.. however, that is the logical problem you have with the beliefs you are claiming.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.

Yes, but only in pointing out some of areas of your belief that will not seem proper to many.

1) God created all beings. He knew what their choices will be before he created the universe.

2) God will then condemn or reward all beings based on their choices, which he knew would happen before he created the universe.

If God created the universe differently, we could have made different choices.

You could have made different choices already. He just knew what you would do. You still made the decision.

This eliminates us 'making choices', since God knew what choices everyone would make for the entire history of the universe even before he created the universe.

No it doesn't. You have completely failed to demonstrate God's responsibility for your choices. You haven't even attempted to because you can't show how God made you do anything. Your hand wasn't forced in any way.

IF you believe that God knows what choices we will make, you eliminate 'free will'. That makes the punishments of God capricious at the very best.

How does God creating the universe differently cause us to make different choices? Unless you can demonstrate that God is the cause of your choices then you haven't eliminated free will.

Because God knew exactly how things will turn out with his creation before he created it. GOd could have created the universe so we would have made different choices... after all, he is all powerful, according to you.

There are numerous ways out of the condundrum.. however, that is the logical problem you have with the beliefs you are claiming.

Being all powerful means he can create anything. You're asking a really bad question. Like, can God create rock so big that he can't lift it. It's a stupid question because it turns on itself. God is infinitely powerful. So, He could create any kind of Universe (any size rock), but no matter how big he made it he could still lift it. In this universe He chose to give us free will. If he took away our choices, we wouldn't have free will. So, you can't have your cake and it eat too. The choices exist therefore free will exists. God's knowledge of your choices does not make Him responsible for them.

[Goat]

I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.

Yes, but only in pointing out some of areas of your belief that will not seem proper to many.

1) God created all beings. He knew what their choices will be before he created the universe.

2) God will then condemn or reward all beings based on their choices, which he knew would happen before he created the universe.

If God created the universe differently, we could have made different choices.

You could have made different choices already. He just knew what you would do. You still made the decision.

This eliminates us 'making choices', since God knew what choices everyone would make for the entire history of the universe even before he created the universe.

No it doesn't. You have completely failed to demonstrate God's responsibility for your choices. You haven't even attempted to because you can't show how God made you do anything. Your hand wasn't forced in any way.

IF you believe that God knows what choices we will make, you eliminate 'free will'. That makes the punishments of God capricious at the very best.

How does God creating the universe differently cause us to make different choices? Unless you can demonstrate that God is the cause of your choices then you haven't eliminated free will.

Because God knew exactly how things will turn out with his creation before he created it. GOd could have created the universe so we would have made different choices... after all, he is all powerful, according to you.

There are numerous ways out of the condundrum.. however, that is the logical problem you have with the beliefs you are claiming.

Being all powerful means he can create anything. You're asking a really bad question. Like, can God create rock so big that he can't lift it. It's a stupid question because it turns on itself. God is infinitely powerful. So, He could create any kind of Universe (any size rock), but no matter how big he made it he could still lift it. In this universe He chose to give us free will. If he took away our choices, we wouldn't have free will. So, you can't have your cake and it eat too. The choices exist therefore free will exists. God's knowledge of your choices does not make Him responsible for them.

YOu see, no, I couldn't have. And that is because
God created the universe, and knew what choices everyone would make even before he created the universe.

Therefore, I have no choice but go down the predestined path that God had me on when he created the universe.

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

[Metatron]

Muy impressivo!!! You've got that whole don't respond to my argument but instead rant about Christ shtick down pat! You're sure you don't have one of those Sybil multiple personality things going on here do you?

Of course God has pre-judged you.

No, he has not. He created you. You can now do as you please.

Were I not a cloud of atoms set in motion by God 15 billion years ago (give or take a billion), I'd be happy to oblige.

By default, you go to hell.

Wrong. Read your bible!

You mean if I sit on my gluteus maximus and do nothing I get into heaven? Hot-diggity-dog, that's the best news of heard all day!

Furthermore, since you are already condemned, it doesn't appear to matter how many or how few sins you pile on. One is enough to fry.

This is ridiculous. If you allow God into your heart and ask forgiveness for your sins (and really mean it!) you will be saved. The "Sin count" is not as important as forgiveness. It is that simple.

Ah, but my point was that Original Sin eliminates the need to worry about sin. The one you're born with is already enough to get you sent to the Really Hot Place. Sin all you want, sucking up to Jesus is the only way you get saved.

Code: Select all

As far as salvation is concerned, there is no moral difference between telling a white lie or molesting a child. There is no gradation of punishment so one is effectively as bad as the other.

Once again, wrong! The bible makes it clear there are "grave" Sins. It is true that only God can judge you in the end so only He will weigh everything together. However, He knows if your Sin is in your heart or if it is a mistake and you have asked for forgiveness. Once again, it has to do with giving yourself to God and asking for his love and forgiveness.

What's there to weigh? We are all judged unworthy of heaven automatically no matter how many or few sins we commit. It's a binary system. 1: we ask forgiveness for our alleged sins from an invisible, intangible, uncommunicative spirit and get to sing endless hosannas to his greatness or 0: we fail to ask forgiveness from said spirit and are toasted like a s'more on Satan's campfire.

The only condition of salvation is blind obedience to God and his avatar Jesus. Nothing else matters

This is your opinion. It is not fact. Obedience cannot be blind or how would you know you are doing the right thing? It is with eyes and arms and heart wide open that we come to the lord.

Well if I can't see, hear, smell, touch, or taste God, I'd have to classify obedience to him as blind (and deaf, etc.)

I also fail to see how opening up a blood pumping muscle to inspection will help me get in good with God.

"Avatar Jesus"? Come on now, this is just unfair insult.

Insult? Moi?

Nay, I say! The use of avatars by celestial beings is a fine upstanding tradition easily pre-dating Christianity. Probably the classic examples are from Hinduism where Vishnu the Preserver occasionally incarnates into human (but seriously souped up) form to counter an imbalance of evil in the world. For example, Vishnu incarnated as the hero Rama (as described in the Ramayana) to counter the evil of the Rakshasa (ie. demon) lord Ravana. Indeed, given that the avatar concept is far older than Christianity, I've always wondered whether Paul (or whoever) got the idea second hand (maybe by way of Persia) from the Hindus.

Metetron, you really need to get things straightened out before it is too late for you:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions ... o_hell.htm

Cool website! If I ever need a website to convince someone that God is a being of unfathomable cosmic evil, I know where to send them.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.

Yes, but only in pointing out some of areas of your belief that will not seem proper to many.

1) God created all beings. He knew what their choices will be before he created the universe.

2) God will then condemn or reward all beings based on their choices, which he knew would happen before he created the universe.

If God created the universe differently, we could have made different choices.

You could have made different choices already. He just knew what you would do. You still made the decision.

This eliminates us 'making choices', since God knew what choices everyone would make for the entire history of the universe even before he created the universe.

No it doesn't. You have completely failed to demonstrate God's responsibility for your choices. You haven't even attempted to because you can't show how God made you do anything. Your hand wasn't forced in any way.

IF you believe that God knows what choices we will make, you eliminate 'free will'. That makes the punishments of God capricious at the very best.

How does God creating the universe differently cause us to make different choices? Unless you can demonstrate that God is the cause of your choices then you haven't eliminated free will.

Because God knew exactly how things will turn out with his creation before he created it. GOd could have created the universe so we would have made different choices... after all, he is all powerful, according to you.

There are numerous ways out of the condundrum.. however, that is the logical problem you have with the beliefs you are claiming.

Being all powerful means he can create anything. You're asking a really bad question. Like, can God create rock so big that he can't lift it. It's a stupid question because it turns on itself. God is infinitely powerful. So, He could create any kind of Universe (any size rock), but no matter how big he made it he could still lift it. In this universe He chose to give us free will. If he took away our choices, we wouldn't have free will. So, you can't have your cake and it eat too. The choices exist therefore free will exists. God's knowledge of your choices does not make Him responsible for them.

YOu see, no, I couldn't have. And that is because
God created the universe, and knew what choices everyone would make even before he created the universe.

Therefore, I have no choice but go down the predestined path that God had me on when he created the universe.

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

You are simply dodging the point. You apparently have no actual argument and just keep saying the same thing over and over again. You can't show how God's knowledge of what you would do actually caused you to do anything. You had free will even if the outcome was known before hand. In order to win this argument you must prove that God caused you to sin. Did God move your lips and cause you to lie? No, he did make you do anything. You did it all on your own, and you know it! Just because God knew what you (and everyone else) would do doesn't mean that the choice wasn't real. Saying otherwise is just a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility.

[Goat]

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

You are simply dodging the point. You apparently have no actual argument and just keep saying the same thing over and over again. You can't show how God's knowledge of what you would do actually caused you to do anything. You had free will even if the outcome was known before hand. In order to win this argument you must prove that God caused you to sin. Did God move your lips and cause you to lie? No, he did make you do anything. You did it all on your own, and you know it! Just because God knew what you (and everyone else) would do doesn't mean that the choice wasn't real. Saying otherwise is just a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility.

I guess you just are unwilling to understand. To acknowledge the point I am making is hitting your very basic assumptions.

I keep on repeating that because of an unwillingness on yoru part to understand. I guess I will not discuss this with you, because you do not wish to hear.

[antichrist]

i appreciate this alot. nice of you. i will check out Juliod. thanks again

Mr. Antichrist,
I have just donated 6.59 tokens to you for your efforts and as an incentive to hang in there.
Although there are many, (most FAR superior to me) in my humble opinion, one of the best atheist debaters in here is Juliod. Check out some of his posts. He is very good at being specific and taking things apart point by point.

[FiredUp4jesus]

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

You are simply dodging the point. You apparently have no actual argument and just keep saying the same thing over and over again. You can't show how God's knowledge of what you would do actually caused you to do anything. You had free will even if the outcome was known before hand. In order to win this argument you must prove that God caused you to sin. Did God move your lips and cause you to lie? No, he did make you do anything. You did it all on your own, and you know it! Just because God knew what you (and everyone else) would do doesn't mean that the choice wasn't real. Saying otherwise is just a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility.

I guess you just are unwilling to understand. To acknowledge the point I am making is hitting your very basic assumptions.

I keep on repeating that because of an unwillingness on yoru part to understand. I guess I will not discuss this with you, because you do not wish to hear.

You haven't made a point. You just keep repeating the same logical fallacy over and over again no matter how many times or how many ways I explain it. You need to re-examine the laws of cause and effect, and demonstrate how foreknowledge can have any effect whatsoever.

[Metatron]

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

You are simply dodging the point. You apparently have no actual argument and just keep saying the same thing over and over again. You can't show how God's knowledge of what you would do actually caused you to do anything. You had free will even if the outcome was known before hand. In order to win this argument you must prove that God caused you to sin. Did God move your lips and cause you to lie? No, he did make you do anything. You did it all on your own, and you know it! Just because God knew what you (and everyone else) would do doesn't mean that the choice wasn't real. Saying otherwise is just a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility.

I guess you just are unwilling to understand. To acknowledge the point I am making is hitting your very basic assumptions.

I keep on repeating that because of an unwillingness on yoru part to understand. I guess I will not discuss this with you, because you do not wish to hear.

You haven't made a point. You just keep repeating the same logical fallacy over and over again no matter how many times or how many ways I explain it. You need to re-examine the laws of cause and effect, and demonstrate how foreknowledge can have any effect whatsoever.

Well how about this? Quoting from myself earlier in this thread:

Except that God does not merely know what you will do the second you decide, he has ALWAYS known what you will do since before the universe was created. He has also always known about the exact circumstances that you are in at the time as well as before and after. He already knows about any deep seated psychosis you will have at the time you make the decision and about any environmental or societal factors that might have influence your decision.

This is why deist during the Enlightenment developed the concept of a clockwork universe. In a universe set in motion by an omni-everything deity, God not only knows where every atom in the universe is and what it is interacting with, he knows where every atom in the universe WILL be in the future. He knows every chemical interaction of your body and exactly when every neuron in your brain will fire. Since God knew all of these interactions even before creation and set the universe in motion with full knowledge of how these interactions would play out, effectively everything in the universe by definition happens by his will. He knew through the confluence of events that he set in motion, the interactions of your body chemistry, the psychosis that were created by the environment and heredity that he willed into being that you either would or would not kill. You, as a finite being, are the sum of the forces God placed in motion at the creation of the universe. By definition, everything happens by his will, therefore free will is an illusion.

[FiredUp4jesus]

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

You are simply dodging the point. You apparently have no actual argument and just keep saying the same thing over and over again. You can't show how God's knowledge of what you would do actually caused you to do anything. You had free will even if the outcome was known before hand. In order to win this argument you must prove that God caused you to sin. Did God move your lips and cause you to lie? No, he did make you do anything. You did it all on your own, and you know it! Just because God knew what you (and everyone else) would do doesn't mean that the choice wasn't real. Saying otherwise is just a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility.

I guess you just are unwilling to understand. To acknowledge the point I am making is hitting your very basic assumptions.

I keep on repeating that because of an unwillingness on yoru part to understand. I guess I will not discuss this with you, because you do not wish to hear.

You haven't made a point. You just keep repeating the same logical fallacy over and over again no matter how many times or how many ways I explain it. You need to re-examine the laws of cause and effect, and demonstrate how foreknowledge can have any effect whatsoever.

Well how about this? Quoting from myself earlier in this thread:

Except that God does not merely know what you will do the second you decide, he has ALWAYS known what you will do since before the universe was created. He has also always known about the exact circumstances that you are in at the time as well as before and after. He already knows about any deep seated psychosis you will have at the time you make the decision and about any environmental or societal factors that might have influence your decision.

This is why deist during the Enlightenment developed the concept of a clockwork universe. In a universe set in motion by an omni-everything deity, God not only knows where every atom in the universe is and what it is interacting with, he knows where every atom in the universe WILL be in the future. He knows every chemical interaction of your body and exactly when every neuron in your brain will fire. Since God knew all of these interactions even before creation and set the universe in motion with full knowledge of how these interactions would play out, effectively everything in the universe by definition happens by his will. He knew through the confluence of events that he set in motion, the interactions of your body chemistry, the psychosis that were created by the environment and heredity that he willed into being that you either would or would not kill. You, as a finite being, are the sum of the forces God placed in motion at the creation of the universe. By definition, everything happens by his will, therefore free will is an illusion.

Thanks for saying the exact same thing without adding a shred of proof to your argument. I agree with most of your comments. Yes God knows everything. But you have never demonstrated that God caused any of our actions. You have shown that He influences our circumstances, but have not provided anything in the nature of causation. In other words, you have made a good argument that everything that happens is God’s will, but you have failed to demonstrate how that truth eliminates my free will. All you have shown is that whatever choice I do make, is in known beforehand and incorporated into God’s perfect plan. So, please show me how God's knowledge of my decision to sin in the future removes the decision making process from my brain. Do I blackout and simply act without thinking? Does God take over my body and make me steal against my will? How does God MAKE ME DO IT? This is the central question which you have refused to answer.