Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[Easyrider]

So then, you become a fundamentalist God with your own, personal moral framework, and man has no choice but to be forced to bow down to your whims.

...haven't you just described the Christian "my way or the hell-way" god?

If that were the case God wouldn't allow the first bit of evil now, would he, so people might have time to learn and repent.

[Metatron]

So then, you become a fundamentalist God with your own, personal moral framework, and man has no choice but to be forced to bow down to your whims.

...haven't you just described the Christian "my way or the hell-way" god?

If that were the case God wouldn't allow the first bit of evil now, would he, so people might have time to learn and repent.

Uhh...maybe I'm being dense but I don't understand the sentence above or how it relates to SimonH's statement.

yours in confusion,

Metatron

[Lotan]

Run it by God and see if he'll okay your plan.

I did. He's kicking Himself for not thinking of it Himself.

I imagine he'll have some other considerations for you to work out, like incorporating some degree of grace into your scenario.

Grace will be doled out on the same arbitrary basis that it always has been.

BTW, how does your 'free will' excuse account for natural 'evils' like tsunamis? Was that The Fall too?

[Easyrider]

BTW, how does your 'free will' excuse account for natural 'evils' like tsunamis? Was that The Fall too?

Since I don't have God's complete divine perspective, you'll have to run it by Him for each particular instance. Be nice when you pray, though.

[Wyvern]

BTW, how does your 'free will' excuse account for natural 'evils' like tsunamis? Was that The Fall too?

Since I don't have God's complete divine perspective, you'll have to run it by Him for each particular instance. Be nice when you pray, though.

I thought you folks took pride in having all the answers, after all that is the route you always take when it comes to evolution and the big bang. Now you turn around and take the typical god works in mysterious ways excuse. I understand it is comforting to believe there is something out there that looks out for you but come on already be an adult finally.

[SimonH]

So then, you become a fundamentalist God with your own, personal moral framework, and man has no choice but to be forced to bow down to your whims.

...haven't you just described the Christian "my way or the hell-way" god?

If that were the case God wouldn't allow the first bit of evil now, would he, so people might have time to learn and repent.

But he doesn't "allow it" - the message is clear: do it my way or go to hell.

The idea of the Christian god giving a "choice", is like me robbing you at gunpoint and telling the jury "Well, he had freewill and chose to give me his wallet."

[Easyrider]

I thought you folks took pride in having all the answers, after all that is the route you always take when it comes to evolution and the big bang.

I don't know where you got that idea. We have a good many answers but I don't know of any Christian or Christian theologian who has ever claimed to have all the answers.

Now you turn around and take the typical god works in mysterious ways excuse. I understand it is comforting to believe there is something out there that looks out for you but come on already be an adult finally.

See above. Now you can change your faulty theory accordingly, or will you?

[Goat]

Just to be fair I don't believe in Original Sin and it makes no sense.
It is not a Hebrew idea it is Pauline and later endorsed by the church.

One man did not bring sin into the world. Two people did not bring sin into the world.
A woman did not get tricked into eating a fruit by a snake and give it to man to create our sinful natures. It is a myth.
I look at my parents and I see their parents and I can see where they got some of their problems. We inherit good and bad genes behavior, characteristic and attitudes from out parents, society, family and friends and make them our own. In Hebrew thought we have good and evil inclinations and we grow, struggle and work them out.
I notice as I get older my once sense of free will was an illusion and doubt I would have done it better. Now if I could go back in time and remember what I know I might have some free will that actually counted. But some things I would still do over. Even if my marriage failed I would still want my children and so I would marry her all over again.

Now back to the garden myth. There is no fall. It is a promotion. The myth says we were created to be gardeners. We lived forever by eating this fruit. One fruit was forbidden because it would kill us. What ever that was. Maybe we saw dead animals and God said, “they ate the fruit” (in the Sumer myth says one god wanted us t eat the fruit the other tricked us into not eating it I doubt it matters). So we eat the fruit and become like the gods. Now we get kicked out of the garden and are told we have the whole earth. That, my friend is a promotion. God then kills some animals; remember they die all the time before we ate the fruit because they didn’t, tells us it won’t be any picnic and blocks the entrance. (Changes the locks)
There is no fall. We were evicted. Dad kicked us out and told us to get a job.
No original sin, just growing up.
This makes sense in a Jesus the Jew kind of way because he was preaching the good news and God’s rule before his dad and not the Romans killed him.
Original sin is a Pauline invention.
The first common ancestral Woman that we all go back to was about 12,000 years ago according the genetics. The first common ancestral Man was about 70,000 years ago. Adam did not know Eve (the mother of all living was a ancient goddess).

The concept that it was a 'promotion' is a very Jewish one. One of the Jewish interpretations is that you can not sin without knowledge of something being right or wrong. Therefore, Adam and Eve (Mankind and life) where innocent
because they did not know evil. (Mind you , they were capable of it, just not aware of it).

Without awareness of good/bad, man would have been no better than the beasts. Good purposely 'set up' mankind, and gave him/her the abilty to make bad choices, so , by making good choices, he/she can elevate his/herself and live a sanctified life, rather than a mundane life.

[juliod]

Therefore, Adam and Eve (Mankind and life) where innocent
because they did not know evil.

Right, and that brings up a key issue here. Before they knew of good and evil, how could they have known it was wrong to disobey? So again it is unreasonable for YHWH to be angry with them.

Without awareness of good/bad, man would have been no better than the beasts.

I think you mean "no worse than beasts" since beasts never do anything out of malice.

DanZ

[Metatron]

Therefore, Adam and Eve (Mankind and life) where innocent
because they did not know evil.

Right, and that brings up a key issue here. Before they knew of good and evil, how could they have known it was wrong to disobey? So again it is unreasonable for YHWH to be angry with them.

Worse than simply being angry God condemned these innocents to death (and a possible trip to the Inferno) as well as the rest of mankind due to some inexplicable inheritability of sin.