I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.
One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.
Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.
Thank you for your time.
Is the concept of Original Sin fair?
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Metatron
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Post #471
Hey good luck with the whole Christian thing. Have you picked out a denomination yet?Cmass wrote:Oh wait, before you go, I have accepted a challenge from Allfiredup on another thread. I am going to try with all my heart to know God in order to understand this "free will" thing. You might want to jump on over there and check out what I am going to do.
I'm not kidding on this. I am going to convince myself that I believe in God (I have done some acting and in order to get into character you really have to convince yourself while you are on stage, that you ARE that person - so I can do this) and then pray and read and listen....all sorts of things! And then listen for and report His answer.
So, for now, I am not an athiest and thus can no longer post threads as an atheist.
- Cmas
Post #472
Thanks Metatron,
Southern Baptist - partly because we are very accessible in various media especially TV.
I am going to sign off now so I can begin getting into the mindset.
Wipe that silly grin off your face.
I am completely and utterly serious here. As of this evening, I am now a Christian and my posts will reflect it.
-------------
Here is my first try:
Original Sin does NOT mean God is prejudging you. Yes, in a sense, you inherited it just like you can inherit wealth or someone elses debt. In this case you inherited God's love (wealth) and someone elses debt (The Fall). It is just too bad that this is the way it is. Deal with it. Go forth and Sin no more.
Yes, we do have free will! God knows what will happen but this does not mean you don't have free will. Here is how it works: Let's say you make a decision to murder a child. This is decision A. The second you make that decision God knows what will happen next. Let's say you decide NOT to murder a child . This is decision B. The second you make that decision God knows what will happen next.
Yes, it sounds confusing. Here is some scripture I looked up that might help:
"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9
"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22
How am I doing so far?
Southern Baptist - partly because we are very accessible in various media especially TV.
I am going to sign off now so I can begin getting into the mindset.
Wipe that silly grin off your face.
I am completely and utterly serious here. As of this evening, I am now a Christian and my posts will reflect it. -------------
Here is my first try:
Original Sin does NOT mean God is prejudging you. Yes, in a sense, you inherited it just like you can inherit wealth or someone elses debt. In this case you inherited God's love (wealth) and someone elses debt (The Fall). It is just too bad that this is the way it is. Deal with it. Go forth and Sin no more.
Yes, we do have free will! God knows what will happen but this does not mean you don't have free will. Here is how it works: Let's say you make a decision to murder a child. This is decision A. The second you make that decision God knows what will happen next. Let's say you decide NOT to murder a child . This is decision B. The second you make that decision God knows what will happen next.
Yes, it sounds confusing. Here is some scripture I looked up that might help:
"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9
"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22
How am I doing so far?
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Metatron
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Post #473
Well since your now officially one of THEM, let's try the old baptism under fire routine.
This is why deist during the Enlightenment developed the concept of a clockwork universe. In a universe set in motion by an omni-everything deity, God not only knows where every atom in the universe is and what it is interacting with, he knows where every atom in the universe WILL be in the future. He knows every chemical interaction of your body and exactly when every neuron in your brain will fire. Since God knew all of these interactions even before creation and set the universe in motion with full knowledge of how these interactions would play out, effectively everything in the universe by definition happens by his will. He knew through the confluence of events that he set in motion, the interactions of your body chemistry, the psychosis that were created by the environment and heredity that he willed into being that you either would or would not kill. You, as a finite being, are the sum of the forces God placed in motion at the creation of the universe. By definition, everything happens by his will, therefore free will is an illusion.
Of course God has pre-judged you. The whole concept of Original Sin implies that you are born in sin ALREADY unworthy of entrance to heaven. By default, you go to hell. Furthermore, since you are already condemned, it doesn't appear to matter how many or how few sins you pile on. One is enough to fry. As far as salvation is concerned, there is no moral difference between telling a white lie or molesting a child. There is no gradation of punishment so one is effectively as bad as the other. The only condition of salvation is blind obedience to God and his avatar Jesus. Nothing else matters.Cmass wrote:
-------------
Here is my first try:
Original Sin does NOT mean God is prejudging you. Yes, in a sense, you inherited it just like you can inherit wealth or someone elses debt. In this case you inherited God's love (wealth) and someone elses debt (The Fall). It is just too bad that this is the way it is. Deal with it. Go forth and Sin no more.
Except that God does not merely know what you will do the second you decide, he has ALWAYS known what you will do since before the universe was created. He has also always known about the exact circumstances that you are in at the time as well as before and after. He already knows about any deep seated psychosis you will have at the time you make the decision and about any environmental or societal factors that might have influence your decision.Cmass wrote:
Yes, we do have free will! God knows what will happen but this does not mean you don't have free will. Here is how it works: Let's say you make a decision to murder a child. This is decision A. The second you make that decision God knows what will happen next. Let's say you decide NOT to murder a child . This is decision B. The second you make that decision God knows what will happen next.
This is why deist during the Enlightenment developed the concept of a clockwork universe. In a universe set in motion by an omni-everything deity, God not only knows where every atom in the universe is and what it is interacting with, he knows where every atom in the universe WILL be in the future. He knows every chemical interaction of your body and exactly when every neuron in your brain will fire. Since God knew all of these interactions even before creation and set the universe in motion with full knowledge of how these interactions would play out, effectively everything in the universe by definition happens by his will. He knew through the confluence of events that he set in motion, the interactions of your body chemistry, the psychosis that were created by the environment and heredity that he willed into being that you either would or would not kill. You, as a finite being, are the sum of the forces God placed in motion at the creation of the universe. By definition, everything happens by his will, therefore free will is an illusion.
Post #474
Of course God has pre-judged you.
No, he has not. He created you. You can now do as you please.
Wrong. Read your bible!By default, you go to hell.
This is ridiculous. If you allow God into your heart and ask forgiveness for your sins (and really mean it!) you will be saved. The "Sin count" is not as important as forgiveness. It is that simple.Furthermore, since you are already condemned, it doesn't appear to matter how many or how few sins you pile on. One is enough to fry.
Code: Select all
As far as salvation is concerned, there is no moral difference between telling a white lie or molesting a child. There is no gradation of punishment so one is effectively as bad as the other.This is your opinion. It is not fact. Obedience cannot be blind or how would you know you are doing the right thing? It is with eyes and arms and heart wide open that we come to the lord.The only condition of salvation is blind obedience to God and his avatar Jesus. Nothing else matters
"Avatar Jesus"? Come on now, this is just unfair insult.
Metetron, you really need to get things straightened out before it is too late for you:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions ... o_hell.htm
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antichrist
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just irrational, inhuman
Post #475it takes a fair amount of brainwashing to believe this.
lets make this simple.
let's stop looking at the bible as 'the word of god' and look into the only things we were born with to look at things with- our own hearts and minds. you are questioning this doctrine because it reeks with dark ages ignorance.
babies are born all over the world. they are beautiful and innocent. no amount of christian brainwashing and twisted theology can change that. they are born to love and be loved- love being a concept that most people agree on universally. they are shaped by their environment and they make certain choices. they test. they try out new ways of thinking. they grow. if you raise them in an attentive, loving, nurturing, healthy, human environment- they will blossom with loving attributes every time as 'nature' intended.
there is no hell waiting for them. sin is just a word. nothing more. no one has authority to say what that word means or should mean. we all agree that certain actions are not desireable but we don't need the fear of god or the fear of hell or the fear of not submitting to a savior's name because we are already doomed to hell to point us in the right direction.
there's folks all over the world whoom have never ever and will never hear the name of jesus and they and thier children are doing just fine- perhaps better because of it.
lets make this simple.
let's stop looking at the bible as 'the word of god' and look into the only things we were born with to look at things with- our own hearts and minds. you are questioning this doctrine because it reeks with dark ages ignorance.
babies are born all over the world. they are beautiful and innocent. no amount of christian brainwashing and twisted theology can change that. they are born to love and be loved- love being a concept that most people agree on universally. they are shaped by their environment and they make certain choices. they test. they try out new ways of thinking. they grow. if you raise them in an attentive, loving, nurturing, healthy, human environment- they will blossom with loving attributes every time as 'nature' intended.
there is no hell waiting for them. sin is just a word. nothing more. no one has authority to say what that word means or should mean. we all agree that certain actions are not desireable but we don't need the fear of god or the fear of hell or the fear of not submitting to a savior's name because we are already doomed to hell to point us in the right direction.
there's folks all over the world whoom have never ever and will never hear the name of jesus and they and thier children are doing just fine- perhaps better because of it.
Post #476
it takes a fair amount of brainwashing to believe this.
This is not debate on the facts, it is angery opinion. Inflammatory.
let's stop looking at the bible as 'the word of god
But it IS the word of God! This is like me saying "Lets stop looking at "Antichrist" (Inflammatory name - what is WITH you man?) as a person.
babies are born all over the world.
And don't forget the many who are murdered by abortion clinics.
no amount of christian brainwashing and twisted theology can change that.
Inflammatory. Not a good debate tactic.
sin is just a word.
Yes, a word that describes something....
there's folks all over the world whoom have never ever and will never hear the name of jesus and they and thier children are doing just fine- perhaps better because of it.
Not necessarily: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions ... o_hell.htm
I really hope you can take the time to read your bible BEFORE going off on some rant like that.
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antichrist
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Post #477
hi,
you can call it inflammatory all you want but i do believe it is brainwashing but then again, we are all being brainwashed all the time so it's not so incrimidating to you on a personal level. I've been there. Angry? YES I am! I'm angry that I was brainwashed into believing all of that myself. Just like any person who escapes from a cult I feel i have a right to be angry about the time period that my mind was trapped in the little box of stolen myths called the bible.
Abortions? whom is being off topic?
You want me to stop being angry about christianity and you put in bold type that this IS the word of god? i'm not angry at you but I am certainly angry at religions. that's my right to be. I don't believe them and I think they do the world harm and we don't need them to be good.
You say sin describes something- but what? you decides what is a sin and what isn't? you? you can't say the bible does- the bible only has authority that you give it and then only to yourself at any particular time in your life.
i read your email link. it doesn't make any rational sense. alot of math doesn't mean a hill of beans about rationalizing, justifying nor proving that hell exists and that people are going to it. in fact, that link had the oppositte effect because it didn't do any of the above (rationalizing, etc.) in truthfulness.
if i get put on probation then just cancel me alltogether because when i say brainwashing- we all are brainwashed but to some degree but religions do whatever they can to spread their doctrines to people to scare them and to indoctrinate children. couldnt finish my thoughts as i have to go.
you can call it inflammatory all you want but i do believe it is brainwashing but then again, we are all being brainwashed all the time so it's not so incrimidating to you on a personal level. I've been there. Angry? YES I am! I'm angry that I was brainwashed into believing all of that myself. Just like any person who escapes from a cult I feel i have a right to be angry about the time period that my mind was trapped in the little box of stolen myths called the bible.
Abortions? whom is being off topic?
You want me to stop being angry about christianity and you put in bold type that this IS the word of god? i'm not angry at you but I am certainly angry at religions. that's my right to be. I don't believe them and I think they do the world harm and we don't need them to be good.
You say sin describes something- but what? you decides what is a sin and what isn't? you? you can't say the bible does- the bible only has authority that you give it and then only to yourself at any particular time in your life.
i read your email link. it doesn't make any rational sense. alot of math doesn't mean a hill of beans about rationalizing, justifying nor proving that hell exists and that people are going to it. in fact, that link had the oppositte effect because it didn't do any of the above (rationalizing, etc.) in truthfulness.
if i get put on probation then just cancel me alltogether because when i say brainwashing- we all are brainwashed but to some degree but religions do whatever they can to spread their doctrines to people to scare them and to indoctrinate children. couldnt finish my thoughts as i have to go.
Cmass wrote:it takes a fair amount of brainwashing to believe this.
This is not debate on the facts, it is angery opinion. Inflammatory.
let's stop looking at the bible as 'the word of god
But it IS the word of God! This is like me saying "Lets stop looking at "Antichrist" (Inflammatory name - what is WITH you man?) as a person.
babies are born all over the world.
And don't forget the many who are murdered by abortion clinics.
no amount of christian brainwashing and twisted theology can change that.
Inflammatory. Not a good debate tactic.
sin is just a word.
Yes, a word that describes something....
there's folks all over the world whoom have never ever and will never hear the name of jesus and they and thier children are doing just fine- perhaps better because of it.
Not necessarily: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions ... o_hell.htm
I really hope you can take the time to read your bible BEFORE going off on some rant like that.
Post #478
Fine, that is your opinion and it proves nothing.you can call it inflammatory all you want but i do believe it is brainwashing
Someone forced you to believe something? Did they use hypnosis, chemicals, deprivation - what?Angry? YES I am! I'm angry that I was brainwashed into believing all of that myself.
Once again was someone forcing you to stay in a cult of some kind? If so, I feel sorry for you but it has nothing to do with Original Sin.Just like any person who escapes from a cult I feel i have a right to be angry
I want you to be at peace. And know God's love. That is all.You want me to stop being angry about Christianity
Yes, it is your right to be angry but I hope you can learn to know God, read the Bible and know His wisdom and his forgiving nature. I will pray for you.I don't believe them and I think they do the world harm and we don't need them to be good.
A definition of sin is doing what is wrong or not doing what is right according to God's rules (1 John 3:4). If God says "Do not lie" and you lie, then you have sinned. If God says "Do not steal" and you steal, then you have sinned. According to God, sin separates you from Him (Isaiah 59:2).You say sin describes something- but what?
No, not me, God decides. Sin is the disobedience to the LORD GOD's Laws and is unrighteous, unjust, immoral and wrong. The five types of sin, transgression, unrighteousness, omission of known duty, faithlessness, and foolish thinking constitute a sin against the LORD GOD.you decides what is a sin and what isn't? you?
Whoa! PLEASE do not go. I may be the one who gets put on probation. As long as you don't call people names or insult anyone personally, you are on fairly solid ground. Seriously, just hang around a bit longer - you may learn something.... When I say your comments are inflammatory (and they were) - I mean this only as part of the debate - to show that you have irrational anger (which you do). I personally have extremely thick skin and I am hard to insult. Keep in mind others, however, who may not.if i get put on probation then just cancel me altogether because when i say brainwashing
Well, OK, if this is true then what is the counter-argument? So we are ALL brainwashed...then brainwashing is a "natural" state of everyone & has no meaning.we all are brainwashed but to some degree
Don't group all religions together - that is prejudice and inappropriate. And as far as "indoctrination of children" goes, you indoctrinate children into the the Darwinian religion every day in public school. And now, many are attempting to indoctrinate children into the gay lifestyle by telling them it is healthy and OK! So don't say we indoctrinate children.but religions do whatever they can to spread their doctrines to people to scare them and to indoctrinate children.
We do however, provide camps for children, but these are healthy ways to teach them God's word in a safe, healthy environment. The children inevitably come home happy and energized with the spirit of God - it really is wonderful to watch!
http://kidsinministry.com/Current.PastE ... hetic.html
There is a new film about the camps - (I have not seen it yet so cannot comment on it's accuracy) I thin there may be a video clip too but I'm not sure: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1
Last edited by Cmass on Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #479
Mr. Antichrist,
I have just donated 6.59 tokens to you for your efforts and as an incentive to hang in there.
Although there are many, (most FAR superior to me) in my humble opinion, one of the best atheist debaters in here is Juliod. Check out some of his posts. He is very good at being specific and taking things apart point by point.
I have just donated 6.59 tokens to you for your efforts and as an incentive to hang in there.
Although there are many, (most FAR superior to me) in my humble opinion, one of the best atheist debaters in here is Juliod. Check out some of his posts. He is very good at being specific and taking things apart point by point.
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FiredUp4jesus
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Post #480
goat wrote:FiredUp4jesus wrote:
I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.
Yes, but only in pointing out some of areas of your belief that will not seem proper to many.
1) God created all beings. He knew what their choices will be before he created the universe.
2) God will then condemn or reward all beings based on their choices, which he knew would happen before he created the universe.
If God created the universe differently, we could have made different choices.
This eliminates us 'making choices', since God knew what choices everyone would make for the entire history of the universe even before he created the universe.
IF you believe that God knows what choices we will make, you eliminate 'free will'. That makes the punishments of God capricious at the very best.
How does God creating the universe differently cause us to make different choices? Unless you can demonstrate that God is the cause of your choices then you haven't eliminated free will.
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer 29:13 NIV
