Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:26 pm

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.

Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

FiredUp4jesus · Post by **FiredUp4jesus** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:14 am

Metatron wrote: What good is free will if all morality is made irrelevant? Since we are born pre-judged as guilty of sin, our moral choices in life literally make no difference! Murderers and child molesters who find Jesus at the end of their lives theoretically go to heaven. The Hindu equivalent of Mother Theresa goes to hell. God apparently doesn't really give a damn how we live are lives, he's only interested in our fawning worship of him.

I don't know where you got your degree in theology Metatron, but I'm sure glad I don't go to your church.

But seriously, we are not born pre-judged, our choices in life make all the difference, and what God cares about more is not what you did, but why you did it. Let's say Mother Theresa's real motive was not helping all those poor starving people in India, her real motive was all the praise and adoration she received for all the work she did. A perfect judge would take that into account. But only God knows the heart, and rest assured that He knows yours as well. Quit comparing yourself to others, you're not going to be judged by comparing your accomplishments with the people around you. You are going to be judged by Perfection Himself, the Holy One, the All Knowing Judge.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:19 am

FiredUp4jesus wrote:
Metatron wrote: What good is free will if all morality is made irrelevant? Since we are born pre-judged as guilty of sin, our moral choices in life literally make no difference! Murderers and child molesters who find Jesus at the end of their lives theoretically go to heaven. The Hindu equivalent of Mother Theresa goes to hell. God apparently doesn't really give a damn how we live are lives, he's only interested in our fawning worship of him.
I don't know where you got your degree in theology Metatron, but I'm sure glad I don't go to your church. But seriously, we are not born pre-judged, our choices in life make all the difference, and what God cares about more is not what you did, but why you did it. Let's say Mother Theresa's real motive was not helping all those poor starving people in India, her real motive was all the praise and adoration she received for all the work she did. A perfect judge would take that into account. But only God knows the heart, and rest assured that He knows yours as well. Quit comparing yourself to others, you're not going to be judged by comparing your accomplishments with the people around you. You are going to be judged by Perfection Himself, the Holy One, the All Knowing Judge.

In your opinion, does God know all the choices we will make before we are even presented with them? Does God know all the choices we will make before we are born?

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:07 pm

Let's say Mother Theresa's real motive was not helping all those poor starving people in India, her real motive was all the praise and adoration she received for all the work she did.

Altruism is built-in. It is a part of our human survival mechanism. Helping others is ultimately in your own self interest - even if you die doing so.
(click...riiiiiip. pop. Ah, it's open. Sniff, sniff. mmmmm, smell those worms!)

but I'm sure glad I don't go to your church.

No indeed because his church would be wrong and yours would be right. And you are absolutely sure of this. Period.

But seriously, we are not born pre-judged, our choices in life make all the difference, and what God cares about more is not what you did, but why you did it.

Of course we were! We were born with original sin. We were born because of original sin. Sin is bad - like a disease. God made us born with this disease. God has made a judgement that sin is a bad thing but then required us to have it. So, a portion of us has been prejudged; that portion that he created that was bad. Now it is up to us to prove to God that we can overcome that sin - or not fall further into it. Otherwise we will burn in the fires of hell forever and ever and ever and ever with no chance of eventual pardon ever ever ever. Hallelujah praise Jesus!

AB · Post by AB » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:15 pm

[/quote]
Of course we were! We were born with original sin. We were born because of original sin. [/quote]

Wrong. The original sin is not the reason we were born

God made us born with this disease.

Wrong. God did not make us Sin. We chose it.

God has made a judgement that sin is a bad thing but then required us to have it.

Wrong. No judgment needed. Anything apart from God is sin. God didn't require us to have it. We choose it.

Now it is up to us to prove to God that we can overcome that sin - or not fall further into it.

Irrelevant statement. It already is proven we can not overcome sin on our own.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:55 am

Wrong. God did not make us Sin. We chose it.

That is rather overstated. I hardly see where humans have chose to sin or be sinners. This also assumes the concept of sin and the fall and I find that unsupportable.

Wrong. No judgment needed. Anything apart from God is sin. God didn't require us to have it. We choose it.

It sounds like a sermon. Is God separate from his creation? If he is then it is evil or in sin if it is not how can it ever be anything but sin as it is separate from God and falls short then God would fall short of Himself? It seems by definition God is perfect and everything else is not and there for is sin. It infers that God can only create sin because it is separate from him and is less or fall short of his glory. Of course you toss in free will but have no real concept or show what it could mean except disobedience. The whole thing is starting to sound like a scam.

Irrelevant statement. It already is proven we can not overcome sin on our own.

How has it been proven that we can not overcome this poorly defined sin?
What do you mean we can't do "it", what ever it is on our own? Did we get in it on our own? If we are in it, how do you know we are not alone as atheist and even some theist and deist believe. It seem your above statements of faith are what is irrelevant.

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:08 am

Wrong. The original sin is not the reason we were born

Wrong. Without The Fall, we would not exist, we would not have ever been born.

Wrong. God did not make us Sin.

Right! We were made WITH Sin. Kind of like good beer is made with hops.

We chose it.

Wrong. Speak for yourself buster!
"We" (you & I) had no choice. Eve did, you did not. You may choose to follow the rules very closely and avoid further Sins and thus get into heaven but you are going to have to overcome the original Sin you were born with.

Wrong. No judgment needed. Anything apart from God is sin. God didn't require us to have it. We choose it.

Luke 43:21: And Jesus said unto them: Pete and Repeat went down to the water. Pete fell in, so who was left? :yapyap:

Irrelevant statement. It already is proven we can not overcome sin on our own.

Be careful using the word "proven". I won't challenge it this time but only because I consider this a fascinating discussion about a fiction novel.
Still, whether we need help or not is irrelevant. So we need help, so what? We were bestowed with something we did not ask for: Original Sin. Sin is a bad thing. "We" did not choose this. I refuse to take responsibility for Eve's questionable behavior with an erotic serpent.

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:18 am

I think Annie Lennox has some excellent insight concerning Original Sin (awesome song - and this thread to reminded me to download it!):

Missionary Man

Well, I was born an original sinner,
I was born from original sin.
And if I had a dollar bill
for all the things I've done,
there'd be a mountain of money
piled up to my chin, hey!
My mother told me good,
my mother told me strong.
She said, "Be true to yourself,
and you can't go wrong.
But there's just one thing
that you must understand:
you can fool with your brother,
but don't mess with a missionary man,
don't mess with a missionary man,
don't mess with a missionary man,
don't mess with a missionary man."
Oh, the missionary man,
he's got God on his side.
He's got the saints and apostles
backing up from behind.
Blackeyed looks from those Bible Books.
He's a man with a mission, got a serious mind.
There was a woman in the jungle,
and a monkey on a tree.
The missionary man,
he was following me.
He said, "Stop what you're doin',
get down upon your knees.
I've a message for you
that you better believe,
believe, believe, believe,
believe, believe, believe, believe,
believe, believe, believe, believe,
believe, believe, believe, believe,
believe, believe, believe, believe,
believe, believe…"
Well, I was born an original sinner,
I was born from original sin.
And if I had a dollar bill
for all the things I've done,
there'd be a mountain of money,
money, money, money, money, money,
money, money, money, money,
money, money, money, money…
Don't mess with a missionary man,
missionary man, missionary man,
missionary man.
Don't mess with a missionary man,
missionary man.

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:10 am

OK, I just downloaded and listened carefully to Annie Lennox's "Missionary Man" so can speak more coherently on this topic:

First, it is very clear if we read Lennox:Verse:Line2
"I was born FROM original Sin"
that, as I stated earlier, we are made FROM Sin like beer is made from hops. It is part of who we are from birth.

If we then examine Lennox:Verse1:Lines 3-6
"And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done, there'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin, hey!"
We see that Annie is admitting that she is not doing a very good job at fighting her Original Sin. She is likely not employing God to the fullest in this regard and it may earn her a trip to eternal fire, torture, damnation and despair for all of eternity for ever and ever and ever and ever with no possibility of ever, ever, ever getting out no matter how much it hurts. Praise God!

Now, if we examine Lennox:Verse1:Lines 6-10 we learn that her Mother has spoken to her and given her advice: "My mother told me good,
my mother told me strong. She said, "Be true to yourself, and you can't go wrong..."" So she has been given a way to fight her Original Sin by being "true to herself".

Later in Lennox:Verse2:Lines 11-14 we learn that an incestuous relationship with our brother is preferable to any contact with a Missionary Man. "But there's just one thing that you must understand: you can fool with your brother, but don't mess with a missionary man" This is clearly instructing us that incest is preferable to molestation by a Catholic Priest.

I am out of time for today's Lennox Study of Original Sin but I'm sure someone else can pick up where I left off.
Keep in mind, however, MY interpretation of this Holy Song text is correct. Yours must follow mine or it is wrong. Annie told me so.
:2gun:

FiredUp4jesus · Post by **FiredUp4jesus** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:22 pm

goat wrote:
FiredUp4jesus wrote:
Metatron wrote: What good is free will if all morality is made irrelevant? Since we are born pre-judged as guilty of sin, our moral choices in life literally make no difference! Murderers and child molesters who find Jesus at the end of their lives theoretically go to heaven. The Hindu equivalent of Mother Theresa goes to hell. God apparently doesn't really give a damn how we live are lives, he's only interested in our fawning worship of him.
I don't know where you got your degree in theology Metatron, but I'm sure glad I don't go to your church. But seriously, we are not born pre-judged, our choices in life make all the difference, and what God cares about more is not what you did, but why you did it. Let's say Mother Theresa's real motive was not helping all those poor starving people in India, her real motive was all the praise and adoration she received for all the work she did. A perfect judge would take that into account. But only God knows the heart, and rest assured that He knows yours as well. Quit comparing yourself to others, you're not going to be judged by comparing your accomplishments with the people around you. You are going to be judged by Perfection Himself, the Holy One, the All Knowing Judge.
In your opinion, does God know all the choices we will make before we are even presented with them? Does God know all the choices we will make before we are born?

Absolutely, God has known everything we are ever going to think, say or do since before the dawn of time.

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:45 pm

Absolutely, God has known everything we are ever going to think, say or do since before the dawn of time.

Then there is no free will. Period. There are a specific set of events that WILL happen. God already knows what those events are. How can I alter those events? There is only free will if I can alter those events and God has no idea what I will alter.
Come on Firedup4J! You are one of the brighter bulbs in this forum - I expect more. This is as straightforward as anything I have ever read on this forum.

If we read from Jethro Tull "This Free Will" we can clearly see a crumbing of faith in the concept of free will and a begging for it to be so by "being children". In other words, it is easier to continue with the fantasy of free will if you have the maturity and mindset of a child:

She peeled from a stretch black snake (Eve and the erotic snake!!)
Which slipped up to the hotel door.
Darting looks from piercing eyes --
The stir of memory and then no more.
Well, you know how I have to believe --
She can almost remember my name.

Its been a long time coming, babe --
Long time loose amongst foreign hills --
Shaking my faith in this free will.

Years ago in a coastal town,
Mosquitoes buzzed in her hair.
Schooldress torn and bare feet brown --
Then the rains came and she wasnt there.
Youre closing your doors on me
When you had almost remembered my name.

Its been a long time coming, babe --
Long time loose amongst foreign hills --
Shaking my faith in this free will.

Sharp points in an ink black sky --
Faint words collide, then are lost.
Ill follow you beneath this dome --
Win you back at any cost.
I know we were children then,
But you can almost remember my name.

Its been a long time coming, babe --
Long time loose amongst foreign hills --
Well, lets be children still --
Dont shake my faith in this free will.