Questions about God...

[dualceleron]

Hi everyone,

I came across this on the web:

http://uqconnect.net/slsoc/bsq/budchr4.htm

I found the arguments there hard to refute. Can some Christian brothers and sisters help me refute the arguments there?

[McCulloch]

Maybe I've missed something but I cannot see any refutation of the points in the page linked to in the opening post.

We have seen that Buddhists do not believe in God because to them the idea is illogical and contrary to the facts. Buddhists also reject the Christian God because, if the Bible is correct, God appears to be so imperfect. All of the negative emotions which most cultured people find unacceptable are to be found in God.

The Bible tells us that there is a time for hate and a time for war (Ex 3:8) and it is widely recognized today that those great evils depend upon each other. As we have seen, God is quite capable of hatred and, not surprisingly is therefore often involved in war.

Justice is the quality of being fair, and a person who is just acts fairly and in accordance with what is right. However ideas about what is fair and right differ from time to time and from person to person. Christians claim that God is just, so by examining his actions we will be able to know God's concept of justice.

Disease, sickness and plagues have been the scourge of mankind for centuries causing untold suffering and misery. The Bible shows us that God has always' considered disease a useful way of expressing his anger and exercising his vengeance.

[Easyrider]

Maybe I've missed something but I cannot see any refutation of the points in the page linked to in the opening post.

We have seen that Buddhists do not believe in God because to them the idea is illogical and contrary to the facts. Buddhists also reject the Christian God because, if the Bible is correct, God appears to be so imperfect. All of the negative emotions which most cultured people find unacceptable are to be found in God.

The Bible tells us that there is a time for hate and a time for war (Ex 3:8) and it is widely recognized today that those great evils depend upon each other. As we have seen, God is quite capable of hatred and, not surprisingly is therefore often involved in war.

Justice is the quality of being fair, and a person who is just acts fairly and in accordance with what is right. However ideas about what is fair and right differ from time to time and from person to person. Christians claim that God is just, so by examining his actions we will be able to know God's concept of justice.

Disease, sickness and plagues have been the scourge of mankind for centuries causing untold suffering and misery. The Bible shows us that God has always' considered disease a useful way of expressing his anger and exercising his vengeance.

I'll take a crack at the following one:

Quote: Disease, sickness and plagues have been the scourge of mankind for centuries causing untold suffering and misery. The Bible shows us that God has always' considered disease a useful way of expressing his anger and exercising his vengeance.

The correct view is that sickness and disease are not just from God, i.e.

Luke 13:10 - Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11A woman was there who had a spirit that had disabled her for eighteen years. She was hunched over and completely unable to stand up straight. 12When Jesus saw her, he called to her and said, "Woman, you are free from your illness." 13 Then he placed his hands on her, and immediately she stood up straight and began praising God.

14 But the synagogue leader, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, told the crowd, "There are six days when work is to be done. So come on those days to be healed, and not on the Sabbath day." 15The Lord replied to him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey and lead it out of the stall to give it some water? 16 Shouldn't this woman, a descendant of Abraham whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free from this bondage on the Sabbath day?" 17Even as he was saying this, all of his opponents were blushing with shame. But the entire crowd was rejoicing at all the wonderful things he was doing.

Luke 8:2 “And also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out…” NIV

There's also other divine purposes of good behind a disease or disability:

In the ninth chapter of the Gospel of John, starting with verse 1, we read, "As Jesus went along, He saw a man that was blind from birth. His disciples asked Him, 'Rabbi, who was it that sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus replied, 'Neither this man or his parents sinned, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.'" Thereafter, the Gospel account records that Jesus restored the man's sight, and that Jesus was glorified among men so that they might know who the Son of God was. The lesson here is that one man's suffering was not the result sin, but part of God's eternal purpose to bring salvation to the earth. There was a previously unforseen purpose behind the suffering.

Here's another purpose of sickness or suffering:

In 2 Corinthians chapter 12 the Apostle Paul describes his struggle with adversity. He clearly identifies God as the 'engineer,' so to speak, behind his suffering:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations (from God), there was given to me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me."

You might argue, "But is says it was a messenger of Satan" who provided the torment. But notice the purpose behind Paul's adversity: "To keep me from becoming conceited." Do you think Satan would engineer a plot to keep Paul, or anyone else, humble? Of course not. Satan's goal is to cause us to exalt ourselves and become prideful.

So three things become evident in looking at this passage:

1). God was the one who originally brought forth Paul's suffering;
2). His purpose was that Paul would not become prideful, which was
the sin that caused Satan to be thrown down from heaven; and
3). God used a messenger of Satan to do it.

Next - disease / suffering and salvation:

Dr. Charles Stanley tells the true story of how one person's suffering brought many others to salvation. Stanley tells the story of an experience in the life of the late Dr. Barnhouse, that illustrates this point perfectly. Dr. Barnhouse was conducting a week of services in a church, along with the resident pastor, who along with his wife were expecting their first child. On the last night of the services the younger pastor did not show up until right near the end of the message. Afterwards, in the study, he turned to Dr. Barnhouse and blurted out, "Dr., I just came from the hospital. Our child has Down Syndrome. I haven't told my wife yet, and I... I just don't know what to tell her." "Friend, this is from the Lord," Dr. Barhnouse replied. And then he turned to Exodus 4:11 in the Old Testament and read him this passage: "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or dumb? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'" "And you know the promise that God gave to us in Romans 8:28 - that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord? Well that includes this child too!"

So the young pastor was encouraged, and he went to the hospital and told his wife about their new baby, and about the scriptures that he had received from Dr. Barnhouse. His wife was still understandably upset, but after a while she calmed down and they decided to trust the Lord, and to love the baby with all their hearts.

Meanwhile, news of the baby with Down Syndrome spread throughout the hospital. This information was of special interest to the hospital switchboard operator. She was not a Christian, and in fact took much pleasure in watching Christians crumble in the face of adversity. She was convinced that under pressure, there was really no difference between Christians and anybody else. So when the pastor's wife called her mother to give her the news, the operator listened intently - expecting the young mother to break down and go to pieces. The young wife said, "Mother, the Lord has blessed us with a baby with Down Syndrome. We don't know the nature of the blessing, but we do know that he is a blessing from the Lord." There were no tears, no hysteria, no emotional breakdown.

The operator was shocked. But when she thought about what she heard, she began telling everyone. Soon the entire hospital was buzzing with the story of the pastor and his wife's response to that apparent tragedy. The following Sunday the young pastor was back in the pulpit. In the congregation, unknown to him, were the telephone operator and seventy nurses and staff members from the hospital. That morning thirty nurses from the hospital came forward and received Christ as their Savior. All because of one special child and the faith of the young pastor and his wife. Would God allow a child to be born with Down Syndrome for the sake of thirty nurses? Absolutely! God sometimes allows suffering so that others might come to faith in His Son.

[Suzanne]

SO you do not believe that EVIDENCE OF HIS TRUTH IN HIS WORD HE HAS HAD WRITTEN, SAID, AND DONE, is ABLE TO be REAVEALED, MANIFESTED, TO ANY OF us INCLUDING YOU IS THAT RIGHT??

In this case, "believe" = "faith". You can no more PROVE the evidence you claim, than you can prove you "believe" what you say.

WELL so I believe that God is.. now that is my faith also.. AS FOR PROVING TO YOU or anyone that what I believe BY faith IN I do not have to prove anything to you or anyone else OK? Besides I could talk till I am blue in the face of what I believe and why and YOU STILL would come up with something to QUSTION about MY BELIEF and FAITH IN GOD being MY CREATOR and YOURS..

THAT is to bad. If that is true for you..

No, it's not so bad. I have "faith" (don't get me wrong), but I don't have the same "faith" you are describing that I should.


I am not saying you have to have any BELIEF IN ANYTHING OR ANYONE INCLUDING GOD.. at all IF YOU DO NOT want to .. THE TRUTH is that everybody has faith IN something even if only faith that They can take their next step out their door. BECAUSE NONE EXPECT TO DROP DEAD in their next step they take RIGHT?? BUT TRUTH IS IT CANM HAPPEN. GET UP TAKE A STEP AND your b next step could be NULL AND VOICD because OF A HEART ATTACK that YOU never EXPECTED TO STRIKE HUH??
THE faith I have is IN MY LORD THY GOD ALMIGHTY AND AGAIN I owe YOU NO EXPLAINATION NOR PROVE HIM TO YOU. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO IF YOU ALREADY KNOW HIM AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR RIGHT??

Because that would mean that YOu have no proof in yourself that tells you that the GOSPEL is REAL and present within you , your heart, mind and Soul.

So, what do you THINK you really know? (Really.) You assume far too much about me; leave something to your God, before you step on His toes.


Don't be concerned MY DEAR. I will not step on HIS toes.. GOD already knows what is in my heart.. IF HE DIDN'T THEN I would not be here to begin with.

I believe in the GOD OF CREATION .

I do too; but it is based strictly upon faith, some scientific views I hold and a LOT of other stuff I cannot PROVE. It is about "faith" primarily (just s I have said all along).


OF course it is about FAITH!!!! so why are YOU QUESTIONING MY FAITH ????

I BELIEVE IN what has been written for us all. TO LIVE BY.

Ok.


AHHHHHHHH nothing to comment about that??? HOW COME??????

FAITH THAT IT IS HE NOT MANKIND THAT HAS CREATED MAN and woman, BUT IT WAS IS AND HAS been GOD ALMIGHTY THAT HAS CREATED ALL THAT is HAS BEEN and will be forever IN THE AGE TO COME .

PROVE IT (or just "believe" it); your choice. I choose to "believe" it; and I'm as certain that I cannot prove what I believe, as I am that my computer has electrons pumping through it. It's not "logical", but I still believe things that I cannot explain (faith). [Hebrews chapter 11 makes my point, well enough.]

Faith is the SUBSTANCE (REALIZATION) of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE (CONFIDENCE) of things not seen.

How would you explain asking God to prove himself to you. and then HE through HIS SPIRIT that is within GIVES YOU a REVEALING of something You have not seen but also KNOW AND HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT what has been revealed is a REALITY but yet I AS a person cannot prove it to be so BUT I KNOW IN MY HEART IT IS so?? and because of THIS REAVELING EXPLAINS ALOT of other things about me.. and why I am who I am and why I believe and have the FAITH I HAVE IN GOD being GOD.. and there is no other BUT ONE LORD, ONE FAITH , and ONE BAPTISM Ephesians 4;5:,6:,7:,

THERE is NO END TO HIM HIS WORD OR HIS KINGDOM NOR HIS SPIRIT.

Amen. But understand, that the full scope of what you claim is unfathomable to human beings; it is a statement of "faith". I do not fault anyone for holding this view; I only fault them for compelling others to "believe" it is true.

These are things which "God" alone (if anyone) can/will reveal to the heaart/mind of those who seek truth... it is not something which you PUSH others to accept because YOU believe in it. I didn't let people push me into positions of "faith"; and I so glad that I didn't. When my faith was tested, it withstood the storms life threw ruthlessly at it. If I had only believed in the things which others SAID I SHOULD or allegedly said have been proven, I would not believe ANYTHING today (most likely).

I've seen more than a few people who so strongly proclaim the things you do, end up NOT believing a damned thing. You see, not ALL atheists are ignorant of the things you share; in fact, most know the WORDS if not "believed" what you claim at some point/s in their past.

What's sad to me, is that some people had to see the "faith" built into their minds by OTHERS, crumble before their eyes, heart and mind... before they were FREE enough to adopt/embrace a "faith" that could truly withstand the tests or trials life would send them.

I support with ALL MY BEING, the right of people to believe as they will, and now vehemently oppose those who PUSH others into positions of "faith" or "belief".

MY DEAR MEL... believe me I am not one to push anyone into anything when it comes to GOD , HIS TRUTH, HIS WORD, OR HIS BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT.. BUT neither will I let anyone TRY TO TAKE MY FAITH and what I have had all my life in as far back as I can remember.

as for telling others about this GOD that I KNOW????? I HAVE every right to do so . the thing is NOT MANY WANT TO LISTEN let alone just talk about what He has done for us.. as MEN AND WOMAN MANKIND!!! MAYBE THAT is why I HAVE THIS COMPUTER. IS because NO ONE CAN STOP ME FROM just TELLING ABOUT what HE TELLS me TO SAY and do when ever people LIKE YOU COME ASKING OR TRYING TO DISCOURAGE ME from what I have believed and had faith in all MY LIFE>> and in the last TEN YEARS HE HAS LITERALLY PROVEN HIS FAITHFULNESS TO ME by all HE has shown and done for me and TO ME because OF MY FAITH IN HIM!!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER IF YOU BELIEVE ANYTHING AT ALL THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES... THAT GOD THE FATHER CREATOR WAS IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE WORD!!!!!! and THAT VERY WORD BECAME FLESH> !!! and THEN THAT FLESH THAT WAS THE WORD >>> SUFFERED, DIED. WAS BURIED. SHED HIS BLOOD, JUST SO YOU AND I COULD HAVE THE LIFE YOU AND I ARE NOW LIVING!!!! WITHOUT FIRST BLOOD BEING SHED... THERE COULD NEVER HAVER BEEN ANY OF US..

SO tell you what You believe GOD OR deny HIM that is a CHOICE EVERYONE HAS.. INCLUDING ME.. and THAT CHOICE IS AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE EVERYBODY HAS TO MAKE sooner or later .. because time eventually runs out for us all and we all have to SUFFER DEATH.. AHH BUT THAT soul?? spirit ?? TELL ME MEL... what will happen to that soul. spirit that.. is within ... FOR if there is no soul and no spirit then what are we ?????? I think we would be dead already having no life to talk, walk, or do anything at all let alone talk to each other here or anywhere HUH??????

AND HE breathed into HIS NOSTRILS, making HIM a LIVING BREATHING SOUL. and man became a living being.

DON'T QUESTION MY FAITH .... WE CAN DISCUSS, we can AGREE TO DISAGREE. FOR WE AE TO REASON together. of course that is why there are wars and fights . is because NONE want to reason together .. BIG problem for most people wouldn't you say so?????????

Or do you want to dispute that and not agree with it?? THAT TOO IS SCRIPTURAL... IT just happens to be a TRUTH YES???? OR NO?????




-Mel-

[kilczer15]

First off, how do we know that a guy or guys called Budhha even existed? Any pictures? Any original writings by him or them? Can we authenticate them?

The buddha's existence canot be validated...just like the Jesus of the gospels. No original writings by him. no pictures, only the words of his followers.

Standing alogside secular historical people and places. Odd for lies to use things that can date them.

I've wondered whether Harry Potter is true. You've given me a way to tell! A part of it is set in London! Since the story uses things that can date it, it cannot be a lie, and must therefore be as True as the bible.

No, wait--Harry Potter doesn't claim to be the word of god. Is this what makes the bible more true than Harry Potter? It says it is?

It doesn't even help your argument to say that there really was a guy or guys called Jesus. There are lots of guys with that name now. The presence of a guy doesn't prove that the guy has supernatural powers or that his dad is a god, even if that guy is compassionate, smart, and a good teacher.

Circular logic at its finest. Bravo, Old Chap. Bravo.


I thought there were original writings and letters by Buddha. I have a book on Buddhism, "Buddhism: Plain and Simple". The author's name escapes at the moment.

[HughDP]

I thought there were original writings and letters by Buddha. I have a book on Buddhism, "Buddhism: Plain and Simple". The author's name escapes at the moment.

The Pali Canon (or Tripitaka) is reputed to be the earliest collection of Buddhist texts. Supposedly, when the Buddha died, his closest followers decided upon how best to represent his many years of teaching and produced the Pali Canon. There was no written record of it until the 1st Century AD, so it is assumed to have been passed down by oral tradition until then.

There are a number of other sutras that may have come down from the times of the Buddha or may have been written later (most likely).

The Buddha himself wrote nothing. Well, nothing that survives anyway.

[melikio]

melikio wrote:

Suzanne, the manner in which you formatted post #23, could cause someone to be confused about who said what (whether it was you or I that said it).

One clue is the "CAPS", the other is the higher level of tolerance for other's beliefs (as indicated).

Still, losing the "CAPS" and providing better formatting of the message would be helpful.

-Mel-

[melikio]

BUT neither will I let anyone TRY TO TAKE MY FAITH and what I have had all my life in as far back as I can remember.

I never called for you to allow that. I merely hold firm to the understanding that people have faith in "different" things (even students of the Bible).

as for telling others about this GOD that I KNOW????? I HAVE every right to do so . the thing is NOT MANY WANT TO LISTEN let alone just talk about what He has done for us.. as MEN AND WOMAN MANKIND!!!

I'm not protesting your COMMITTMENT to your view of faith; I (in fact) support that you have such a personal view of faith. But I WILL certainly protest against anyone, who says that others SHOULD have the same faith which you do.

MAYBE THAT is why I HAVE THIS COMPUTER. IS because NO ONE CAN STOP ME FROM just TELLING ABOUT what HE TELLS me TO SAY and do when ever people LIKE YOU COME ASKING OR TRYING TO DISCOURAGE ME from what I have believed and had faith in all MY LIFE>> and in the last TEN YEARS HE HAS LITERALLY PROVEN HIS FAITHFULNESS TO ME by all HE has shown and done for me and TO ME because OF MY FAITH IN HIM!!!!!!!!!

Again, you speak for yourself, and also from convictions which you personally have certitude about; not everyone on the planet sees this the way you do.

REMEMBER IF YOU BELIEVE ANYTHING AT ALL THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES... THAT GOD THE FATHER CREATOR WAS IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE WORD!!!!!!

I respect the right and ability of others to have that much faith in the Bible, but I really do not.

and THAT VERY WORD BECAME FLESH> !!! and THEN THAT FLESH THAT WAS THE WORD >>> SUFFERED, DIED. WAS BURIED. SHED HIS BLOOD, JUST SO YOU AND I COULD HAVE THE LIFE YOU AND I ARE NOW LIVING!!!! WITHOUT FIRST BLOOD BEING SHED... THERE COULD NEVER HAVER BEEN ANY OF US..

This kind of thing has never been proven, and likely never will be; and that won't stop every person from having some faith in such things. Either you believe this with the relatively obscure evidence/clues we have concerning it, or you do not. Personally, I believe (by faith) God can/does communicate with human beings in a far more direct manner than using an old, super-reedited and questionable book. Not that the Bible doesn't contain truths, but that I do not believe that it is ALL absolutely true nor is it to be taken as literally true by all human beings. It can bolster faith or even tear it down. Some "CHOOSE" to not question things, others do question; there is nothing particularly wrong from either view position.

SO tell you what You believe GOD OR deny HIM that is a CHOICE EVERYONE HAS.. INCLUDING ME.. and THAT CHOICE IS AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE EVERYBODY HAS TO MAKE sooner or later .. because time eventually runs out for us all and we all have to SUFFER DEATH..

I'm not going to live my life as if I have to race to make a "choice". I have what God has given me in life, to understand that which I must. And for whatever reasons, the "Bible" isn't the only thing which has provided me with the understanding of reality which I possess. I cannot change that, and I don't care to change it at this point. Fear of death is not something I'm willing to trade for the sanity I now possess. Love is more significant and important to me than death likely ever will be; we'll see.

AHH BUT THAT soul?? spirit ?? TELL ME MEL... what will happen to that soul. spirit that.. is within ... FOR if there is no soul and no spirit then what are we ?????? I think we would be dead already having no life to talk, walk, or do anything at all let alone talk to each other here or anywhere HUH??????

At the risk of sounding as if I've been atheistic all of my life, I don't know what to do about what I do not really know or actually have control over. And I DO question what people like you say about those things which I HAVE indeed prayed about more times and in more places than you will ever fathom. You talk about "faith" (we all do), but you cannot read my heart and mind (certainly not any better than I can); and yes, I believe we are limited in doing that even for ourselves, no one is PERFECTLY objective.

AND HE breathed into HIS NOSTRILS, making HIM a LIVING BREATHING SOUL. and man became a living being.

I believe (by faith) in what Jesus represents, to the degree which I can. I'm NOT going to believe every biblical story, just because somone SAYS I SHOULD; to me that's a big problem.

DON'T QUESTION MY FAITH

I don't, and I didn't. I merely protest that you believe anyone else should have the same faith which you possess. The world isn't wired that way, even if God did create and have a hand in it all (free will and individual human experiences are a part of every life).

.... WE CAN DISCUSS, we can AGREE TO DISAGREE. FOR WE AE TO REASON together. of course that is why there are wars and fights . is because NONE want to reason together .. BIG problem for most people wouldn't you say so?????????

LOVE is the key. It keeps me (prohibits) from stepping on your head, just to shut you up about that which I don't believe (and vice versa). In fact, it encourages me to loves those who just might be my enemy. I adhere to the concept of LOVE by faith; every since I read it in 1Corinthians chapter 13.

Or do you want to dispute that and not agree with it?? THAT TOO IS SCRIPTURAL... IT just happens to be a TRUTH YES???? OR NO?????

People generally SUCK; I've found that to be the case. Even so, I see love as being more important than my view of mankind (as illustrated by the way Jesus treated people DESPITE what He knew about them).

As far as what is "TRUTH", then I leave that to the individual, as God (if He truly exists) plants the ideas and concepts into their hearts and minds. Words and proclamations can indeed influence a person, but the gift of faith which you obviously possess, is imparted by God. After all, who can believe in what is likely UNPROVABLE, except by faith?

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

melikio wrote:

Suzanne, the manner in which you formatted post #23, could cause someone to be confused about who said what (whether it was you or I that said it).

One clue is the "CAPS", the other is the higher level of tolerance for other's beliefs (as indicated).

Still, losing the "CAPS" and providing better formatting of the message would be helpful.

-Mel-

Your Sig.. below????

"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God."


May I ask you: YOU are also A believer IN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD Jesus Christ THAT has come in the flesh??? , SUFFERED, DIED, WAS BURIED, SHEDDING HIS BLOOD, ONCE FOR ALL ????

OR do you deny THIS TRUTH that has been written BY THAT SAME SPIRIT OF GOD that THE HOLY BIBLE, THE SCRIPTURES that have been written FOR US ALL??? THE OLD TESTAMENT, NEW TESTAMENT, AND BOOK OF REVELATION HAS been written BY. OR DO YOU DENY MALACHI 3;16: ???

ALSO what are HOSTS?? OF THE LORD.. ?? IF it is not WE whom have His HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM. HIS spirit within us ??? OR do you also DENY Isaiah's WORD THAT HE HAD WRITTEN, ABOUT The VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS. YET THE FIRST BLOOD was shed RIGHT from the beginning. Or do you not believe that GOD THE FATHER OF ALL THAT HAS EVER BEEN IS AND WILL BE.. is NOT??????

NO SIN, NO FIRST BLOOD WOULD HAVE BEEN NEEDED, TO FORGIVE A SIN THAT WAS NEVER COMMITTED....

PERSONALLY I THANK GOD every day for that First Blood Or I would never have the LIFE I have now OR would I have any HOPE for a TOMORROW let alone THE AGE TO COME?????

MAYBE YOUR problem with me just might be that YOU believe I set MYSELF up HIGHER then MY GOD, MY LORD, my Heavenly Father ???? SORRY.. No I am not any better then YOU.. BUT pardon me for saying so You are no better then I am either. OK????????

Sorry You might not like me telling you that. BUT THANK GOD THAT I HAD a MOTHER AND A DAD that RAISED me to KNOW that I AM NOT ABOVE ANY OTHER AND NONE ARE ABOVE ME EITHER. YET I WAS ALSO RAISED to be a MOTHER AND A WIFE AND know that a MAN and WOMAN, HUSBAND and WIFE should BE ABLE TO REASON TOGETHER enough to get along with each other...... AND I PERSONALLY do not want to be RULER OVER ANYONE let alone a MAN. BUT neither will I be a DOOR MAT FOR ONE either... How did all this start??

MAYBE because YOU ARE a MAN??? or so MEL ikio SAYS MALE but in the internet who Knows...... THAT is FUNNY TO ME.. Sometimes even out of the net it is hard to tell the men from the boys, or the man from a woman anymore . and there is a whole nother subject . or subjects that one could go from there. GEESH!!!

I better quit before I get off on another tangent that is not relavent here anyway.

[melikio]

"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God."

Yes, that is my signature.

And now Ms. "CAPS" Lady, I leave you with that thought.

I'm not going to interact anymore with hostile people, or those who intend to be. And just because you have the Bible or religion backing your obvious hostility, doesn't make it any better or more helpful.

You see, I could indeed reciporcate or put up shields (verbally) to much of what you say, but I'd rather withdraw gently to keep the peace which remains.

Peace to you and yours.

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

I never called for you to allow that. I merely hold firm to the understanding that people have faith in "different" things (even students of the Bible).

WELL now ... are you saying you are a STUDENT ??? of the BIBLE??? GEE I believe we all can be CONSIDERED STUDENTS of the BIBLE...
YET I do however believe that some become to understand what the WORD THAT GOD HAS HAD WRITTEN tells us.. I could say much about that. BUT short and to the point//// before one can understand one must have HIS SPIRIT TO GIVE US an UNDERSTANDING OF what HE HAS said and done and will do for all that have FAITH TO BELIEVE , CONFESS< and RECIEVE G HIS WORD< TRUTH AND YES EVEN HIS LOVE for without HIS LOVE none of us could have LOVE for anyone .. GEESH do not get me started on LOVE . OF PEOPLE, GOD, OR ANYONE.

I'm not protesting your COMMITTMENT to your view of faith; I (in fact) support that you have such a personal view of faith. But I WILL certainly protest against anyone, who says that others SHOULD have the same faith which you do.

Well I cannot argue that.. and I will not. FOR AS I SAID.. CHOICE???? all have one.. Don't WE??? DENY HIM . OR ACCEPT HIM... SIMPLE TO ME.. IF not that simple for you I am TRULY SORRY .. I REALLY AM.. FOR I could tell you why I believe the way I do. BUT I would and will never tell some things in here to anyone. I MAY TELL many much but I have one thing that I have had revealed to me BY that HOLY SPIRIT THAT NO ONE KNOWS because I have never told anyone about it. BUT that is not all that has proven to me that GOD IS .. and that HIS WORD HE HAS HAD WRITTEN.. is true.

Again, you speak for yourself, and also from convictions which you personally have certitude about; not everyone on the planet sees this the way you do.

That could be because i know who I am and where I am and How I got here and why?????????? IF MORE UNDERSTOOD THIS THEN MAYBE the world would be a much better place then what it is .. and just maybe NONE OF US would have to FIGHT and have WARS between people all the time HAVE YOU EVER thought about that??

I have always told MY KIDS IF EVERYBODY ON EARTH would just DO what THE BIBLE SAYS TO DO!!!!! WE WOULD HAVE OUR HEAVEN ON EARTH.

I respect the right and ability of others to have that much faith in the Bible, but I really do not.

Bible WHAT is this??? You trying to point something out to me???

Why is it that you cannot have faith THAT GOD , THE FATHER, THE WORD, IS NOT who HE has said HE is??? AS HE HAS HAD IT WRITTEN FOR US to LIVE AND LEARN OF HIM, US and WHO WE ARE IN HIM, BY HIM, AND THROUGH HIM???

APPARENTLY YOU think you have no soul to be saved or need salvation. MAYBE you believe you have no sin within you at all and never have had??? BIG mistake if that is the case.. FOR I am no person of perfection here and neither are you unless you think your are?? PLEASE do not TELL ME that you are someone that thinks He is so perfect that HE DEMANDS perfection from others also ESPECIALLY from those that have no idea what Is right and wrong to do in the first place. PEOPLE LIKE THAT HAVE NO PATIENCE.. with anything or anyone.. I MARRIED ONE LIKE THAT!!! LOVED HIM YES. agravating yes he sure was. hey this is no place for this so ... SORRY.

This kind of thing has never been proven, and likely never will be; and that won't stop every person from having some faith in such things. Either you believe this with the relatively obscure evidence/clues we have concerning it, or you do not. Personally, I believe (by faith) God can/does communicate with human beings in a far more direct manner than using an old, super-reedited and questionable book. Not that the Bible doesn't contain truths, but that I do not believe that it is ALL absolutely true nor is it to be taken as literally true by all human beings. It can bolster faith or even tear it down. Some "CHOOSE" to not question things, others do question; there is nothing particularly wrong from either view position.

THE POINT HERE.... IS that I have faith In what I know to be a truth FOR ME!! OK??? IF YOU CANNOT believe IN THE FIRST BLOOD THAT HAD TO be SHED before any OF MANKIND COULD EVEN HAVE LIFE TO LIVE .. THEN I AM NOT sure anyone can help you. BECAUSE IF GOD WAS NOT THEN MAN would have never been and we as woman would never be either. BECAUSE there had to be a FIRST MAN AND A FIRST WOMAN. and PLEASE do not come up with this WE COME FROM SOME UNKNOWN, UNNAMED, NOTHINGNESS .. BECAUSE YOU TAKE O from O and YOU GET WHAT?? O

AND I did not come from some ape, monkey, or tadpole of somekind.. OK!!!! I did not crawl out from under a rock somewhere.. NOW DUST OF the GROUND///// I can agree to that. FOR MAN WS what was CREATED from the DUST of the GROUND.. BUT THAT MAN would have STAYED JUST THAT!!!!!! NOTHING BUT A FORM OF NOTHING BT A PILE OF DIRT!!! NO LIFE, a NOTHING AT ALL . GEE I bet YOU being a man . REALLY HATE TO HEAR that ABOUT YOURSELF HUH?? well hey sometimes truth really hurts . doesn't it??? BUT HEY GET HAPPY OK??? because IF IT were not for you well CONSIDERING YOUR ARE the MAN the FIRST TO be GIVEN LIFE. BY WHO??? OH YA.. GOD!!!!!!!! well ALL GLORY AND PRAISES BE TO My LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!! HE GAVE THAT MAN HE HAD CREATED FROM THAT DUST OF THE GROUND.. OR NONE OF US WOMAN would have never ever had any life to live. NOW there you have it. WITHOUT YOU MEN where would any of us woman be.. BUT because THAT man THAT did not just do what HE WAS told to do BY THAT . FATHER THAT GAVE HIM THAT LIFE??????? BY BREATHING IN HIS NOSTRILS.. did not obey the RULE??? well WE ALL DIE ONCE> yup WE all have to die once.. THE MAN given a sentence of death .. AFTER ALL it was the man UNLESS I am mistaken.. THAT was given the LAW the rule OF GOD ALMIGHTY THE HEAVENLY FATHER. SUPPOSED TO have protected the THE WOMAN, TAKE CARE OF all that God had given him.. and GOD WAS going to just supply everything.. well so what did THAT first man then DO?? NOT ONLY did he eat the FRUIT, OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL .. BUT HE BLAMED the woman that God had given him and that then also BLAMES GOD THE FATHER RIGHT??? COULD explain all that too.. I wonder why I should even have to.. TO ANYONE!!!!!

BECAUSE we come from man. being the female We did not get off for what EVE did either. yet we all HAVE THE SAME DEATH PENALTY that GOD COULD NOT RESCIND. yet HE could RECTIFY AND CORRECT THE PROBLEM HE had.. BLOOD!!! .. IT had to be SHED or OUR SIN could never have been FORGIVEN ..

I wonder what you are thinking??? Why should I even CARE what YOU are THINKING?????

QUESTION?? if none of us ever QUESTIONED anything we would never get any answers at all. ESPECIALLY if we never LISTENED TO the answers when they are given. PEOPLE never LISTEN TO the ANSWERS when they are asked to give them. AND SOME ARE LIKE YOU never ASK AND IF THEY DO they DO NOT LISTEN .. MAYBE BECAUSE they DO NOT LIKE THE ANSWER THEY GET!!!!!!!! I CAN relate to that one real well. :):) YET I DO NOT LIKE TO ASK A QUESTION and GET no answer at all . BUT IF I cannot have the truth then DON'T LET me ask ... I think I best GET outa here I am getting angry and I hate getting angry . Can't do that ..

I'm not going to live my life as if I have to race to make a "choice". I have what God has given me in life, to understand that which I must. And for whatever reasons, the "Bible" isn't the only thing which has provided me with the understanding of reality which I possess. I cannot change that, and I don't care to change it at this point. Fear of death is not something I'm willing to trade for the sanity I now possess. Love is more significant and important to me than death likely ever will be; we'll see.

RACE?? to make a CHOICE?? So to you death mean nothing ? right? You have no real fear of dieing? I do not see CHOOSEING GOD .. as being a CHOICE that has to be a race.. NEITHER do I.. But having NO FEAR at all is VERY DANGEROUS. Of course I do believe that there are people that live that are so detached from life as a whole that they have no real fear of anything anymore. that can be a danf gerous thing I think. BECAUSE OF the truth that EVIL is WICKED people EXIST. NOT all people LOVE . NOR do they have the LOVE OF GOD in their hearts. and because of that they ALSO do things that CAN physically hurt another person. and when that happens ONE BETTER be ready to PROTECT themselves and anyone else that they care about and love. SOMETIMES even when you SAVE your LIFE TO BY HURTING ANOTHER or even killing another is not worth the living afterwards... YET I DO NOT believe IN MY HEART. THAT MY GOD , MY LORD, MY HEAVENLY FATHER. would ever CONDEMN ANYBODY for PROTECTING THEIR FAMILY, WIFE, OR EVEN THEIR OWN LIFE. OTHERWISE why would GOD GIVE US A WAY OF PROTECTING US FROM HARM.. BY giving us that STRENGTH TO come to do what needs to be done to SAVE OURSELVES OR ANOTHER. IF WE as people had no FEAR OF DEATH MORE THEN WE LOVE THE LIFE HE HAS GIVEN AND WE ARE SO BLESSED WITH!!!! THEN what KIND OF PEOPLE ARE WE??? JUST DEAD ALREADY PEOPLE HAVING NO FEELINGS ABOUT ANYTHING OR ANYONE????

I do not FEAR DYING. but I sure do not want to DIE before IT is time for me to DIE either.. LIFE is not all BLESSINGS. never will be . BUT it is the only LIFE I PLAN on HAVING IN THIS LIFE. and I DO NOT believe that I will be back HERE AGAIN. when I am gone I will be gone from this EARTH FOREVER . NEVER TO RETURN AGAIN. SO ya YOUR RIGHT LOVE is very IMPORTANT. BUT NOT TO LOVE LIFE SO LITTLE THAT ONE SHOULD WANT TO DIE before they are ORDAINED TO ... and GOD ONLY KNOWS when that will be for either you or I or many FOR ONLY those that HAVE A DEATH penalty TO die on a GIVEN DAY BY A JUDGE AND JURY OF THREE OR MORE WITNESSES. meaning a JURY OF MY PEERS. MEANING OTHER PEOPLE. and THAT would only be if I have murdered someone and I have been caught put on trial and convicted BY A JURY OF TWELVE people like myself. MANKIND. NO WITNESSES.. then GOD will and does judge us later. THAT is what HELL IS FOR!!! I believe some people are in their own LITTLE personal HELL.. maybe when they need not be there in the first place. for they are not really guilty of anything . IF they were well apparently they have not been found out tried and convicted by THEIR PEERS. GUILT CAN DO HORRENDOUS THINGS TO A PERSON.. IT is not good at all to carry guilt when maybe the guilt is not even theirs to bare. BUT ANOTHERS ..

IN TRUTH WE all are guilty of something. BUT even the worst of us can be forgiven .. THAT IS WHAT IS so wonderful about MY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. THAT IS IN HEAVEN.. THAT IS why I have MY FAITH and why I BELIEVE AS I DO. BECAUSE I KNOW I AM LOVED BY GOD before I was LOVED BY ANYONE. IF I DID NOT KNOW and BELIEVE THAT??
HOW COULD I EVER LOVE ANOTHER. ????????LET LONG have any understanding of some..

At the risk of sounding as if I've been atheistic all of my life, I don't know what to do about what I do not really know or actually have control over. And I DO question what people like you say about those things which I HAVE indeed prayed about more times and in more places than you will ever fathom. You talk about "faith" (we all do), but you cannot read my heart and mind (certainly not any better than I can); and yes, I believe we are limited in doing that even for ourselves, no one is PERFECTLY objective.

CAN ANYONE make a PERFECT JUDGMENT about anything that they have told to them . IF THEY ARE ASKED TO DO SO????? WELL depends on what the ITEM is that one is asked to make a judgment about. I know you cannot ask me about something here.. BUT I would be willing to GIVE any help I can ?? IF YOU ARE willing to write me I can try to listen and answer if need be and CAN.. IF YOU are not willing to hear truth . well that has to be your choice then. BECAUSE IF I get asked I will do my best to be honest .. if asked about something about that person that is asking. I have told people if you do not want the truth then don't ask me.. and if you want to know if I have said or done something then ask me...... If I do not want to answer I won't .

You do not believe that a person can know what is a truth in their own heart and mind?? WHY? You could be right about me not knowing your heart and mind.. BUT then again THIS IS the INTERNET. SO I TAKE everybody as a GRAIN OF SALT!! TRUST UNTIL IT IS PROVEN TO BE NOT WORTHY TO BELIEVE. TO BE HONEST I HAVE REALLY HAD A PROBLEM with this lately. TO MANY VOICES . and I NEEDED TO JUST LISTEN TO ONE VOICE. meaning that that is IN MY HEART. and what THAT SPIRIT WITHIN TELLS ME .. OF COURSE anyone that does not understand that SPIRIT I suppose CANNOT understand what I mean either . SO I am SORRY you do not understand .... THAT is the only thing I do not like about IN HERE.. NEVER CAN RELATE AS WELL and NEVER KNOW who YOU ARE DEALING WITH . and that IS NOT GOOD FR someone LIKE ME> THAT TRUSTS EVERYBODY UNTIL THEY PROVE THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED. been there done that more then once. NOT IN HERE MUCH. but outa here seems LIKE CAN HAPPEN ALOT. SAD TO SAY.

I believe (by faith) in what Jesus represents, to the degree which I can. I'm NOT going to believe every biblical story, just because somone SAYS I SHOULD; to me that's a big problem.

I am not sure I am understanding you . believe the stories??? You do not see the HOLY BIBLE AS A HISTORY OF what GOD HAS ALREADY CREATED ???????

I don't, and I didn't. I merely protest that you believe anyone else should have the same faith which you possess. The world isn't wired that way, even if God did create and have a hand in it all (free will and individual human experiences are a part of every life).

OH i'm sorry,, I did not mean you had to POSSESS the same faith I have. To be honest I am not certain very many COULD .. yet My faith has been really tested here recently.. I really do believe this has been the worst trial of faith I have ever been thru in my life. BUT I am still here hanging in and on my faith. IN THE ONLY THING I have ever had faith in. THAT being THE ONLY GOD I HAVE EVER KNOWN. THAT BEING THE ONE THAT HAS given ME THIS LIFE ..

YES INDIVIDUAL expierences of our lives have more tyo do with who and what we are more then anyone realizes .. I do however people are beginning to understand that without FAITH THAT WE ALL HAVE within us TO HAVE AWAKENED TO US AS IT is .. then more people will begin to change in ways they never expected ... WE all have to face our own skeletons we have in our PRIVATE CLOSED DARK AREAS OF OUR LIFE before we can BE FREE enough to LIVE .. SORRY TO SAY MY HUSBAND WAS LIKE MANY PEOPLE I HAVE KNOWN.. DID NOT understand this UNTIL IT WAS TO LATE to really enjoy HIS LIFE AS HE COULD AND SHOULD HAVE.. I must say I have NEVER BEEN SORRY FOR ANYTHING IF THAT I HAVE ACTUALLY GONE THROUGH!!!! NOT because I have not been wrong about alot of things and done thngs that were wrong to do.. YET THROUGH IT ALL we learn something and grow. SO WHY should I be SORRY FOR THAT HUH???????? GROW LIKE WHAT ???? IN FAITH. I have never yet had any thing that I FOUND WAS NOT A GOOD THING OR I HAD done what was wrong OR said anything THAT GOD HAS NOT made and TURNED IT ALL FOR GOOD FOR ME PERSONALLY.. I EITHER GET put down BY HIM for it.. and LEARN from it. OR I get BLESSED BY IT with a reward in someway.. EITHER WAY I GET BLESSED .. FOR THAT IS what MY LORD IS ALL ABOUT GIVING BLESSINGS AND CHASTISEMENTS .... OTHERWISE I WOULD HAVE TO SAY MY LORD DOES NOTY LOVE ME.. and I believe GOD MY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY HAS ALWAYS LOVED ME. HE KNEW ME BEFORE I WAS ...

LOVE is the key. It keeps me (prohibits) from stepping on your head, just to shut you up about that which I don't believe (and vice versa). In fact, it encourages me to loves those who just might be my enemy. I adhere to the concept of LOVE by faith; every since I read it in 1Corinthians chapter 13.

I agree with that.. I JUST HAVE A HARD TIME ABIDING BY IT.. CHAPTER 13 I mean.. BUT HEY ARE YOU REALLY THAT PERFECT??? I don't think so. and In truth You come close maybe. or do you just see yourself being that perfect?? IF YOU REALLY ARE THAT PERFECT and YOU CAN BE ALL THAT CONTROLLED AND never get angry or care enough to seek happiness FOR YOURSELF??? I SEEK HAPPINESS FOR MYSELF. I GUESS I should say am trying to. as if I am not already BASICALLY happy. forget it I do not want to get started.

WHAT IN THE WORLD do you mean about PROHIBITS YOU FROM STEPPING ON MY HEAD?? just to shut me up??? people step on SNAKES!!!! I am not a snake thank you for thinking so GEESH!!! and what is it that you do not believe about me?? and what am I not believing or do believe about you AM I SUPPOSED TO know you personally ?????

People generally SUCK; I've found that to be the case. Even so, I see love as being more important than my view of mankind (as illustrated by the way Jesus treated people DESPITE what He knew about them).

I am not following this thought you write at all.. I do agree there are many people out there THAT ARE NOT ALL WE as CHRISTIANS would want all to be. BUT PERSONALLY GOD TEACHES THAT I AM NOT ANY BETTER THEN ANOTHER. FOR WE ALL HAVE been there done that SINNED> LIED STOLEN COMMITED ADULTRY BEEN UNFAITHFUL AND BEEN DISOBEDIENT TO GOD .. AND HIS RULE'S and HE DOES HAVE SOME YA KNOW. BUT WE sure do not have to continue in our LIEING CHEATING STEALING MURDERING, AND HATEING ANYONE . there is such a thing for all to do TURN FROM LIEING STEALING AND FORGIVE. TRUTH is some people jst do not forgive and some will not recieve it. and in that case you just write them off and let GOD DEAL with them.

IF you see the LOVE that JESUS had for people No matter who they were and what problem they might have. yet you cannot CARE about MANKIND AS A whole ?? MAYBE WE are talking about to SEPERATE IDEAS of LOVE here..

As far as what is "TRUTH", then I leave that to the individual, as God (if He truly exists) plants the ideas and concepts into their hearts and minds. Words and proclamations can indeed influence a person, but the gift of faith which you obviously possess, is imparted by God. After all, who can believe in what is likely UNPROVABLE, except by faith?

WELL tell ya what.. TRIALS come and TRIALS GO. I have been in trials and tribulations before... THIS one I am still in it. I will forever be in it.. Because this one is not about to go away. BUT FAITH in what I have believed I cannot shake away what I WAS shown .. the only thing is I cannot believe the LIE if it was.. and is.. and YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT only GOD KNOWS the truth about that. and I MAY NEVER KNOW. BUT will it change MY LOVE for that person NO!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE THIS KIND OF LOVE is NOT EASILY LET GO OF.. ESPECIALLY IF WHAT I SAW AND HEARD IS ALL TRUTH.

SO if mankind as a whole are so terrible that YOU think they are not worthy of your love ONLY HOW JESUS LOVED.. which is HOW??? UNCONDITIONALLY??? well THERE ARE certain Conditions in this life.

IN FREINDSHIPS, LOVE RELATIONSHIPS, SUCH AS MARITAL
FRIENDSHIPS ARE A TWO WAY STREET. A MEETING OF MINDS AND HEARTS ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT TO DO and WHAT builds that FRIENDSHIP if it is a TRUE FRIENDSHIP. THIS is the whole problem with this trial I have.

I was honest, and I would hope he was also. yet our ideas about Freinds is different . and because of my honesty I am not sure what went wrong there. I know what I was told. I had no real problem with that. BUT friends do not deny something so simple. JUST BECAUSE OF NO I DO NOT WANT TO . because I DON"T GIVE MY NUMBER TO NOBODY. well somebody has it SO that is not a nobody . and I suspect there is not just one person I mean after all KYDS?? and OTHER FRIENDS?? or maybe He has no friends... I am not going to get into this . I am trying very hard to just get on with my life here and I really am not doing a very good job of it.especially since I was told I AM SUPPOSED TO BE the LAUGH for the day now...

IF that be true what KIND OF FRIENDS are those then OR HE FOR THAT MATTER. again VOICES.. BUT NO REAL ANSWERS to any questions. so I write it off as another STUPID CRAZY MISTAKE FOR what has ever been fair when it come to THE LOVE IN A WOMANS OR MANS HEART. i have made many stupid choices in my life before. One having married someone that i should have never have done if i had of just been older and wiser i would not have.





-Mel-