Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

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Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi gang !

Once again, while showering, something came to mind...

William Lane Craig is famous for his re-working of the old Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Here it is in a nut-shell for those who might need a bit of a refresher. Craig states the Kalam cosmological argument as a brief syllogism, most commonly rendered as follows:

______________

The argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
P2. The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

C1. The universe has a cause.

From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:

P3. The universe has a cause;
P4. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

Therefore:

C. An uncased, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

____________

This thread wants to take a good look at P1. that is, the very first premise of the argument that states :"Whatever begins to exist has a cause."

As in all arguments, if we accept that this premise is true, we move on to the next premise, and so on, to it's conclusion that must follow from one to the next without any gaps.

Now, if we cannot demonstrate that a premise in the argument is TRUE, then the argument may be VALID, but not sound. The conclusion we get from an argument is just as weak as it's weakest link, so to speak.

So, what about the first premise?

Is it TRUE that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"?

I am a skeptic at heart, so I am suspicious about that.


Let me give some preliminary reasons, that I got while showering with my Spiderman "Spidey Sense" Soft Soap ®... ( very refreshing ) :


1. Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist. I'm not too sure what that means... What does it MEAN to say that something has a "beginning" to it's existence? What does it MEAN to say that not all things begin to exist? Which kinds of things begin to exist, and which kinds of things don't begin to exist? Now, we need rigorous definitions, don't we? Anyone has those? I sure don't. The more that I look, the more confused I get.

2. It doesn't say what hasn't begun to exist. But I suspect that the case is very well chosen. Some people might protest that there is a difference between saying that something doesn't begin to exist and saying that something hasn't yet begun to exist. We are now having to make a distinction that is very subtly grammatical.

3. Of course, if something has not yet begun to exist, it cannot yet exist. But if we are trying to prove that something has caused the universe, it at least has to exist in some way. Otherwise, the argument... is weird.

4. The Kalam is very old.. It wasn't always phrased the way that WLC does. In fact, WLC has introduced the word "begins to" ... because before we could ask "Who caused God?". So, it seems that Craig wants to save the argument by replacing "exists" by "begins to exist". If only GOD doesn't "begin to exist", then I see special pleading going on.

5. Craig says this about the nature of "God's" infinity:

"God's infinity is, as it were, qualitative, not quantitative. It means that God is metaphysically necessary, morally perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and so on."

In other words, when Craig uses the term "infinite" to refer to a being who doesn't begin, he isn't talking about numbers, but characteristics. I "began to exist" in the middle 50's. See how that's a number? I could have started counting the years of my "existence" at 0, or 1, or some other NUMBER, but it's weird to think that we don't COUNT things without numbers.. but if there are no NUMBERS, to me, it's weird to say that something began or didn't begin. Time is a series of numbers, one after another.. seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years.. eons.. we count those, because they are NUMBERED. If it can't be counted, I don't know how it can be called "time", and if it isn't "time" we are talking about.. causation seems a bit weird to be talking about.. and to begin.. implies "time"... so again.. very weird.

So, when I read "Whatever BEGINS to exist.." I think "What on earth is Craig talking about"? A quality or a measurable instance of time? If the word BEGINS is an instance of time that is measurable for everything ELSE but "God", this is special pleading once again.

6. The second part.. "A CAUSE" ... this is the really REALLY weird part.. and I will keep it short. You see, Craig doesn't like infinite regresses.. so, the universe can't be it's own cause due to an infinite regress.. what cause the cause of the cause.. and so on.. Physical matter NOT of this universe can't be the cause because.. what's the cause of THAT.. and so on.. more infinite regress. The very ODD thing about Craig's solution, "God", is that it is eternal in the past.. In other words, it seems to "cause the cause of the cause of the cause.. " in an infinite regress. To me, and this is just preliminary thinking, he solves one infinity.. "Cause" with another infinity "God".


Just some thoughts.. I have my doubts about the first premise.

_____________

So, here are the questions for debate:


1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?

_____________


:)

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Post #291

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 276 by hoghead1]
hoghead1 wrote:
Yes, true, and so does science, the whole nine yards goes down the drain.
So, are you saying that Craig is throwing all of science down the drain, too?

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Post #292

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 288 by hoghead1]



[center]
Correcting the correction:
Part One[/center]

hoghead1 wrote:
Yes, of courses. That is just what I said, as can clearly be seen form the quote of mine you cited. So why the "correction"?
By the way, I didn't "cite a quote mine" .. I just quoted you ... but never mind..

I correct people when I'm pretty sure that they are wrong and I have more accurate information. I'm not sure you got the point of my correction. I could have been clearer. My bad.

I will attempt to be more clear.
( that's always job one in here )

So, let's recap:

In Post 283, hoghead1 wrote:

"I agree that we humans have a very limited window into the distant past and so our understanding of teh origin of teh universe is heavily based on speculation. "

So far so good.
I have nothing at all to object to, in fact, I completely agree.

Below is the part that I objected to:

"That's why many scientists will tell you that we are not dealing with absolute truth based on absolute proof. We are dealing with degrees of probability of a certain theory being correct. "

To which I offered the correction:

"Science does not discuss the "absolute truth" or the "absolute proof" of anything. Any scientist claiming such would be immediately rejected as a PSEUDO-SCIENTIST. "

I now concede that I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I might have done better to ask you a list of questions as to your meaning, instead.

Let me try again. THIS is my claim:

No science of any kind discusses "absolute truth" or "absolute proof" ever.

Science just isn't in the business of "absolutes". Science isn't in the business of "Proof" Proofs is for maths. Science deals as you put it, "in degrees of probability".

What I meant to clarify or correct, is that ALL science is about probabilities. This is NOT peculiar about cosmology or theoretical physics or any science related to the Big Bang.

Now, POSSIBLY you didn't mean that science is about proofs.
Possibly, you didn't mean that science is in the business of absolutes.

IF I am wrong, please explain.
Now, I've been a bit lazy recently, so I haven't offered you a list of questions that might help you make your case.

If you are curious as to what those might be.. just ask.
It's nap time for this cat right now...

Meowzzzz


:)

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Post #293

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Blastcat]

Brother BC, usually we are in the same court, so I hope this disjunction will not strain our relationship.

I am afraid you must delve into the realm of high-energy physics, and discover that the compression of elements by gravity forms things called neutron stars.

The compression of neutrons stars, say by devouring a partner star, creates black holes, which are formed out of bosons when "neutron degeneracy pressure" causes the neutrons to collapse.

Bosons are 80x more massive than neutrons (or a hydrogen atom), but being bosons, they occupy no volume!
We observe bosons. we observe them decay into neutrons, neutrons into protons and electrons. The volume increase from a boson to neutron is essentially infinite. The volume of a neutron is 6*10^-54, of hydrogen 2.5*10^-45, a volume increase of 10^10!

We have the same evidence that bosons decay that we do fusion occurs on the Sun: Observing it in a lab.

So, what evidence do you find wanting?

By your ultimate line of reasoning we can't know anything, which, I have faith, is not a cop-out you would pull.

The above is what I believe, it is based on our understanding of atoms and conservation laws, not invisible creators. Observables not theoreticals. If there is something non-sequitur, I am open...

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Post #294

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 292 by Willum]


[center]
Skeptics demand evidence
Part Two: Believing an opinion[/center]

Willum wrote:
So, what evidence do you find wanting?

Evidence of what occurred BEFORE the Big Bang.

And by the way:
________________

FOR THE RECORD:

Doesn't matter if we agree or not.
People who debate honestly get my respect. "MY COURT" is good sound reasoning and accurate data.

________________
Willum wrote:
By your ultimate line of reasoning we can't know anything, which, I have faith, is not a cop-out you would pull.
That's a bizarre conclusion from what I said.
Could you elaborate?

Willum wrote:
The above is what I believe, it is based on our understanding of atoms and conservation laws, not invisible creators.
You believe it.
Well, Amen to that.

I am not at all talking about invisible creators. I am talking about the fact that you seem to know more than any scientist in the world. I'm skeptical of that claim, of course.

Your belief seems to be based on faith. Or at least, a theist could very easily accuse of it. I know because I debate them a lot.

Willum wrote:
Observables not theoreticals. If there is something non-sequitur, I am open..
You just seem to keep missing the point:

Nobody knows exactly how the universe got started.


Did you miss that?


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Post #295

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Blastcat]

Ah, you believe what HH believes: "No one knows how the universe got started."

But by that reasoning, no ones knows for sure very much at all. We haven't observed very much of the things we accept as science. We can't, by that line of reasoning say, things will be the same five minutes ago as they will be five minutes from now.

It is useless to go down that road. Maybe God will show up in five minutes after being dead for so long. None of us were alive in 1800, so no one knows about that either.

However, if we apply what we know: The conservation of matter and energy, Dark Matter, boson decay, cosmic background radiation (our evidence of the Big Bang (BB)), and that protons and electrons do not change barring nuclear forces, then we know:

The same amount of matter existed before the BB as after. Nuclear forces drove the BB.

There is no need for a creator, anymore than there is a need for one in a lab where we observe the phenomenon.

That matter does not magically appear, BB or no, it has no need to: The BB was a transformation of one state to another. Assuming a creator to explain something that needs no explaining is idiotic.
Dark Matter, or alien matter, could very well be the corpse of anther universe, there is no reason to believe otherwise, and one reason to believe so: It doesn't behave like the rest, so there maybe atoms around us older than the universe.
If you accept the BB, then the entire universe came from a near point. Bosons occupy no volume, so science would tend to suggest thats it: The universe went from bosons of zero volume, to neutrons of 10^-54m (x the number of atoms in the universe) volume to hydrogen of 10^10 that, in about 20 minutes!
This is all according to what we observe. If you are going to respond by saying we can't "know" it, because it occurred longer ago than anyone's been alive, then fine, have it your way (but don't discuss it with me - I haven't been fascinated by that concept since I was 17).

The only thing that is reasonable to discuss is whether the universe is an open or closed universe. Whether it will collapse on itself again, which puts a neat bow on things, or will continue to expand, which makes things more interesting.

Neither of these however, invoke a need for a creator. Thus WCL is an idiot or charlatan.

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Post #296

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 294 by Willum]

Pulls out a chair and starts eating popcorn
For the record, I'm not on either your or Blastcat's side in this disagreement between the two of you. Just that I quite like it and am interested in seeing where it goes. Do go on.
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Post #297

Post by benchwarmer »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 294 by Willum]

Pulls out a chair and starts eating popcorn
For the record, I'm not on either your or Blastcat's side in this disagreement between the two of you. Just that I quite like it and am interested in seeing where it goes. Do go on.
Pulls up a chair beside riku and sneakily grabs some of his popcorn.:chew:

My quick take as an observer:

Blastcat probably be wanting observable evidence from before the BB.

Willum is probably using extrapolation of known observation and logic.

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Post #298

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 294 by Willum]




[center]Skeptics demand evidence
Part Three: Grand claims, poor reasoning[/center]

Willum wrote:
Ah, you believe what HH believes: "No one knows how the universe got started."

But by that reasoning, no ones knows for sure very much at all.
Sorry, but that just doesn't follow.
I can explain that tricky bit of logic if you want.

By the way, who is HH?
I might not necessarily agree with HH. If that's his epistemic reasoning, it's awful.

Willum wrote:
We haven't observed very much of the things we accept as science.
Is that so?
What a very weird idea.

Willum wrote:
We can't, by that line of reasoning say, things will be the same five minutes ago as they will be five minutes from now.
Things will be the same five minutes AGO as they will five minutes from now?
Time goes back and forth that way?

I'm not following.
That's a mess.

Willum wrote:
It is useless to go down that road.
I suggest not to take it.

Willum wrote:
Maybe God will show up in five minutes after being dead for so long. None of us were alive in 1800, so no one knows about that either.
Is anyone pretending to have been alive back then?
Your point?

Willum wrote:
However, if we apply what we know: The conservation of matter and energy, Dark Matter, boson decay, cosmic background radiation (our evidence of the Big Bang (BB)), and that protons and electrons do not change barring nuclear forces, then we know:

The same amount of matter existed before the BB as after. Nuclear forces drove the BB.
Ok, nuclear forces drove the Big Bang.
Now what?

Willum wrote:
There is no need for a creator, anymore than there is a need for one in a lab where we observe the phenomenon.
We aren't discussing the necessity for a creator.
At least I wasn't.

I was talking about your HUGE knowledge claim.
You seem to know more about the origins of the universe than anyone else.

I'm skeptical.

Willum wrote:
That matter does not magically appear, BB or no, it has no need to: The BB was a transformation of one state to another. Assuming a creator to explain something that needs no explaining is idiotic.
It might very well be.

Willum wrote:
Dark Matter, or alien matter, could very well be the corpse of anther universe, there is no reason to believe otherwise, and one reason to believe so: It doesn't behave like the rest, so there maybe atoms around us older than the universe.
Yep, we can speculate. Isn't it fun?

I just read a book entitled "God's Debris".. I wont tell you the theory, it's a short book, and the theory is hidden until the very end. So I would spoil the book. Needless to say, people have wonderful imaginations. We can indeed speculate.



Speculations, however, are not facts.
You seem confused.
Willum wrote:
If you accept the BB, then the entire universe came from a near point.
"Came from"

But where did that near point come from? You are speculating about the origins of the universe, and present those speculations as facts. You are confused.

We are talking about BEFORE, or the CAUSE of the initial condition of the universe "before" it was the universe, if the word "before" has any meaning.

It's as if you want us to believe that you sorted this all out. I'm skeptical.

Willum wrote:
f you are going to respond by saying we can't "know" it, because it occurred longer ago than anyone's been alive, then fine, have it your way (but don't discuss it with me - I haven't been fascinated by that concept since I was 17).
I would never respond that way.

"It's not true because we weren't alive at the time to see it?"

What a very very silly notion.

The Big Bang is said to have occurred 13.7 BILLION years ago. I don't think anyone of us was ALIVE at the time. We are talking about events that happened a bit before that.
Willum wrote:
The only thing that is reasonable to discuss is whether the universe is an open or closed universe. Whether it will collapse on itself again, which puts a neat bow on things, or will continue to expand, which makes things more interesting.
Well, consider me unreasonable.
I don't agree at all with you.

( it's also possible that some theoretical physicists might not either )

Willum wrote:
Neither of these however, invoke a need for a creator. Thus WCL is an idiot or charlatan.
My discussion with you right now has nothing to do with the idiocy or honesty of an apologist. It's was about the hubris of pretending to know more than anyone else.

I remain, as always, your trusted skeptic.
Cheers.

:)

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Post #299

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Blastcat]

Well, it is easy to go over every sentence and challenge assumptions about them. Even if there isn't anything to challenge.

For example, "came from" as in came from a point? Please, OK, since you are going to play the "it isn't clear" game.

According the BB the universe expanded from a near point.
Bosons, as I have mentioned occupy no volume, despite have 80x the mass of hydrogen! So they can occupy a point theoretically, and this is observed.
So, except for ankle-biting, "came from" is just a way to describe the BB theory.

Have you observed hydrogen? No, it's too small. In that mien, very few of us have observed even the things we take for granted as science.
Things will be the same five minutes AGO as they will five minutes from now?
Fatuous.

*******************************

If somehow you think we aren't discussing a creator, I think you should re-read the OP. It's by a respectable poster.
Nobody knows exactly how the universe got started.
OK, nobody knows what happened 12,000 years ago either. So explain the difference in what you are trying to say.

You say you want evidence of what happened before the BB: It is identical to the evidence of the nuclear processes going on on Alpha Cebtauri. Do you believe the star Alpha Centauri is undergoing nuclear change? Or perhaps; do you believe in neutron stars and black holes? These are the phenomenology we are talking about.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #300

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 298 by Willum]




[center]Skeptics demand evidence
Part Four: That wasn't it, but I'm ready to quit[/center]

Willum wrote:
If somehow you think we aren't discussing a creator, I think you should re-read the OP. It's by a respectable poster.
Ok, that made me chuckle.
Good joke !

RESPECTABLE, am I?
I challenge that baseless accusation !!!



MY OBJECTION wasn't at all about a creator.
Do you RECALL my objection?

Do you RECALL what I was on about?
It wasn't at all about a creator.

I think the point of my objection to you went.....zooooom zizzzzz piffffffffzle.

I'm quite ready to drop this if you are.
Don't worry your head about it.


:)

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