Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?

[Justin108]

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

God should surely be able to convince even the deliberately obtuse.

If a man throws a line to someone and s/he refuses to grab it then the only way one could conceivably fault the thrower is that s/he presumed upon the intelligence of the [strike]idiot[/strike] one in the water.

People floating in a lifeboat who refused to accept lines thrown to them by those standing on the decks of the Titanic as the bow disappears under the surface of the ocean and the stern rises, might well be excused for looking at things from a different point of view.

[marco]

God should surely be able to convince even the deliberately obtuse.

If a man throws a line to someone and s/he refuses to grab it then the only way one could conceivably fault the thrower is that s/he presumed upon the intelligence of the [strike]idiot[/strike] one in the water.

You know perfectly well that some who disbelieve are almost at your own level of intelligence. There is nothing idiotic about those who have left their set of beliefs; it is often hard to do. I am full of admiration for Islamic apostates who are threatened with death for thinking along another path.

I have been where you are. At the end of the evening one chooses. I have no idea if there is some being or beings beyond my sphere but I feel certain that the one in the Bible is no creator. Imperfection and indifference don't come into it.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

There is a logical problem lurking here.

According to Thomas Aquinas, God cannot perform a contradiction.

According to Christian doctrine (and common sense) man is equipped with freewill.

Thus, God cannot at the same time give man freewill while withholding from him freewill.

Now, if a given man does not want to believe in God, because such belief entails changes in his lifestyle, is it a failure of God that he cannot bring the man to belief by argumentation?

Only if God is not perfect. A perfect God would find the perfect argument that would convince even the most stubborn. Are you saying that your God is unable to do that?

He apparently knows us even better than we know ourselves. He'd know exactly what to say or do to convince us.

[OnceConvinced]

you argue against a made up god in a made up religion, not Christianity.

I would say that YOUR version of God is the made up one. The Christian one loves everyone not just his chosen few. "For god so loved the WORLD"

Many contend against your definition of the world which ignores Scriptural facts:
Leviticus 20:23 "And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them."

Psalm 5:5 - "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Etc, etc.

How is exposing bible contradictions helping your argument? This is not a card game. One scripture does not automatically trump the last scripture that was quoted.

The bible is clearly contradictory, so when it comes to the bible, no one can claim that their god is the correct version.

NONE of YHWH's loved ones are on the road to Hell, only those condemned already by HIS judgement against their evil.

Contradiction of John 3:16

But well within the context of the next verse

Not at all. The next part does not say that God hates them. Just that they are condemned. It is you that is adding on the bit the evil doers were never loved by him.

But ok, so YOUR reason God won't make an effort for many of us is because he hates us? So it's not a matter of imperfection or indifference. It's a matter of hate.

HE made the best effort anyone could ask for.

He didn't make the best effort that I could ask for. Not at all, so you are completely wrong about that. When I was losing my faith I begged and begged him to help me. I never got that help.

Everyone had the same opportunity to use their free will to create their eternal relationship

Please prove this with more than just empty claims from the bible or withdraw your statement.

with HIM as family or enemy by faith without proof. Then to prove that proof has no sway against sin, HE proved HIS deity and power to everyone so none have an excuse and all sinners still rejected HIM, repressing the memory of HIS proof because they loved sin more.

I know for a fact that what you are preaching here is not true.

I am certainly not alone in interpreting Romans 1 this way...

No you are not. There are many Christians who would like to believe it, however I stand as proof that it's not true.

it is ordinary Christian doctrine.

And one that is clearly wishful thinking.

Your are trying to exploit a niggle of fallacy in the system,

Nope, I know for a fact that no God has proved his existence to me. I know for a fact that the universe does not make it clear to me God exists. The universe shows me that we are here due to evolution.

stating your opinion of scripture as fact.

This is not just an opinion I am making here. I have evidence. ME! Unless you want to call me a liar.

HE loves HIS children but not everyone is HIS child: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect but are a perverse and crooked generation. or: their defect is that they are not HIS children...

I get it. According to your take on the bible God hates us. We really don't need to debate this further. Your position is clear.

[1213]

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

I have no reason to believe He is imperfect or apathetic.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

But the reason for judgment is not the disbelief, but this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

There is no good reason to make you believe He exists, if it doesn’t make you righteous. And righteousness is needed for person to get eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

[OnceConvinced]

God should surely be able to convince even the deliberately obtuse.

If a man throws a line to someone and s/he refuses to grab it then the only way one could conceivably fault the thrower is that s/he presumed upon the intelligence of the [strike]idiot[/strike] one in the water.

If a man loved the person they threw the line to, they would find some other way to rescue that person.

Are you saying your God has only limited resources at his disposal? That he could find no other way? Doesn't sound like a very omnipotent God, does it? If your God cannot convince a person that the best thing to do is grab the rope, then that is most definitely a failure on his part.

Your God is clearly a very impotent god. Either that or non-existent.

[JLB32168]

If a man loved the person they threw the line to, they would find some other way to rescue that person.

Like what? Am I supposed to pull you out of the water when you refuse to leave? If I do, aren’t you going to fault me with breaking some moral something for imposing my will upon yours? Doesn’t that mean I’m still imperfect because I disrespected your wishes?

It seems you've absolved yourself of any responsibility, which is an imperfect way of thinking; therefore, I've little reason to conclude that you're capable of judging the difference between im/perfect.

[marco]

Am I supposed to pull you out of the water when you refuse to leave?

When someone is attempting suicide, rescuers don't ignore him/ her. If someone is drowning and is unaware of the danger, it would be improper of a being, capable of saving the drowning person, to refrain on the basis that the person appears not to want to be rescued.

Your parallel isn't apt because the argument is NOT about someone refusing to be saved but being unaware that there is any danger. As we go though our life there are no large notices saying "DANGER". If we are expected to get such important information from street preachers or the local religious couple who knock on our door then one would say the communication method leaves much to be desired.

[ttruscott]

IMCO

Only if God is not perfect. A perfect God would find the perfect argument that would convince even the most stubborn. Are you saying that your God is unable to do that?

He apparently knows us even better than we know ourselves. He'd know exactly what to say or do to convince us.

The majority Christian answer, though the details vary amongst the denominations, is imo, that doctrine is firm that sin has an enslaving value to the sinner causing a change of character that is inclined to evil that permeates every decision so that the truth is not what sways their point of view any longer, but they choose to believe that view of reality that best allows them to indulge in the pleasures and profits of sin.

So great is their addiction to evil that even after seeing GOD prove HIS power and divinity so they have no excuse, they still repress the memory of this proof so as to feel free to indulge. Christians also believe, on the whole though not with perfect exactitude, (is that enough weasel words yet?) that such proof has been given and ignored.

The second point that renders this topic of speculation moot from the basic, general Christian pov, is that entry into heavenly marriage is / must be by choice, an uncoerced free will choice, so any decision made from seeing a proof that cannot be resisted from any source at all is unacceptable as the choice was coerced by that proof and was / might not have been the first most valued choice of the person at all. GOD wants to enter into a marriage of free wills, not a rape of someone who hates HIM but is forced by circumstances to marry HIM...as recently scorned as an ancient Hebrew method of slavery so, I gather, also not acceptable to this company in this topic.

In other words, those who must be convinced by proof before they will accept HIM, those who refuse to put their faith in HIM as a hope without proof, cannot marry HIM. Therefore the choice to accept HIM as GOD or to reject HIM as a lying false god must have been full and final before any proofs of HIS divinity and power were given.

Realizing that we are the commanders / engineers of our own fate by our own free will choices and that we have already sealed that self chosen fate is the shocker that is the modern stumbling block,

impo.

[ttruscott]

How is exposing bible contradictions helping your argument? This is not a card game. One scripture does not automatically trump the last scripture that was quoted.

There are many who accept the contradictions as true but Christians do not, though many, some, a few Christians are willing to let such supposed contradictions slide. Thinking Christians or the nit picking kind cannot and must reconcile both the supposedly contradictory verses and their theology to make sense between themselves and with reality.

It seems like at first you did not know about any seeming contradiction between John 3:16 and 18, quoting 3:16 as definitive of Christian thinking in all the world, then you are content to accept that as a real contradiction to scorn belief but only by ignoring the resolution to that non-contradiction that was presented. Oh well, right on track...