Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:38 am

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

JoeyKnothead · Post by **JoeyKnothead** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:45 pm

From Post 3:

JLB32168 wrote: God perfectly reveals Himself to anyone unless s/he is deliberately obtuse.

And...

Post 4:

JehovahsWitness wrote: It is however possible God has no interest in forcing the unreasonable to see sense if they don't want to.

Notice the theist is incapable of showing his god has "revealed" anything, but dangitall, "Religion'srealandy'allarepoopieheadsif'nyadon'tbelieve! "

What's that line about once one done gives up, they set in on the slanders?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:49 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
The universe is in my opinion more than enough evidence for any reasonable individual to conclude there is a God.

For some it may be enough. For many it's not. In fact I see the universe as evidence for any reasonable individual to conclude there is NO god.

JehovahsWitness wrote:
And the more we learn about it and the life in it, the more it becomes a logical and scientific inevitability.

The more I've learned about it, the more convinced I've become that we are here due to evolution.

JehovahsWitness wrote:
It is however possible God has no interest in forcing the unreasonable to see sense if they don't want to.

So then you admit that your god is apathetic?

If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.

JehovahsWitness wrote:
It is however possible God has no interest in forcing the unreasonable to see sense if they don't want to.

Or perhaps the unreasonable would rather hold on to beliefs that "Goddidit"?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:25 pm

OnceConvinced wrote:If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.

Non-Christian strawman postulate: you argue against a made up god in a made up religion, not Christianity.

NONE of YHWH's loved ones are on the road to Hell, only those condemned already by HIS judgement against their evil. All His sheep who have gone astray into sin will be returned to Him. Period. All the sinful people of the kingdom aka the good seed will become mature in holiness and inevitably be safely brought into HIS barn. If GOD be for them who can be against them?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:37 pm

ttruscott wrote:
OnceConvinced wrote:If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.
Non-Christian strawman postulate:

This coming from a guy who quoted a scripture in Romans that is obviously not true?

Your god is clearly an apathetic one if he's not willing to prove himself to even the most stubborn.

ttruscott wrote: you argue against a made up god in a made up religion, not Christianity.

I would say that YOUR version of God is the made up one. The Christian one loves everyone not just his chosen few. "For god so loved the WORLD"

ttruscott wrote: NONE of YHWH's loved ones are on the road to Hell, only those condemned already by HIS judgement against their evil.

Contradiction of John 3:16

But ok, so YOUR reason God won't make an effort for many of us is because he hates us? So it's not a matter of imperfection or indifference. It's a matter of hate.

Glad we have that settled.

ttruscott wrote: All His sheep who have gone astray into sin will be returned to Him. Period. All the sinful people of the kingdom aka the good seed will become mature in holiness and inevitably be safely brought into HIS barn. If GOD be for them who can be against them?

No matter what you or the deluded and fallible Paul preach (and it is preaching), the evidence of the universe shows me evolution, not God.

dianaiad · Post by **dianaiad** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:41 pm

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

Moderator Intervention

There have been several reports on this thread that all come down to the same problem: responses to the OP seem to be referring to their own beliefs as authoritative, and thus have violated the 'preaching' guidelines.

Remember, especially in a topic such as this one where it is so easy to cross that line, that NO religion is assumed to be 'true,' or 'the right one." Be careful to couch your responses with this in mind.

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JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:49 pm

OnceConvinced wrote: If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.

I don't believe in hell. I do believe in death though.

The point is, if the bible account is to be believed, Satan is not an atheist but he's still condemed to death so obviously accepting there is a god is no guarantee biblically that a person will avoid destruction. Salvation, I believe, is a matter of the heart and if a heart is wicked then it won't see anything but what it wants to see. Possibly God is simply selecting appropriate hearts to make contact with and judging others as being unworthy.

A possible 3rd option to consider.

JW

Talishi · Post by **Talishi** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:20 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: Satan is not an atheist but he's still condemed to death so obviously accepting there is a god is no guarantee biblically that a person will avoid destruction.

If God came down here and made a bet with me that I could never get his servant JehovasWitness to curse God to his face, I'd believe in God too, just like Satan does.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:22 pm

Talishi wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Satan is not an atheist but he's still condemed to death so obviously accepting there is a god is no guarantee biblically that a person will avoid destruction.
If God came down here and made a bet with me that I could never get his servant JehovasWitness to curse God to his face, I'd believe in God too, just like Satan does.

Yes, that's my point, but the bible says he's still going to be destroyed. I'm not saying to have to believe the bible is true if you don't want to, I'm just saying that is what the bible presents his fate to be despite the fact that he isn't an atheist.

JW

liamconnor · Post by **liamconnor** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:06 am

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

There is a logical problem lurking here.

According to Thomas Aquinas, God cannot perform a contradiction.

According to Christian doctrine (and common sense) man is equipped with freewill.

Thus, God cannot at the same time give man freewill while withholding from him freewill.

Now, if a given man does not want to believe in God, because such belief entails changes in his lifestyle, is it a failure of God that he cannot bring the man to belief by argumentation?

This is not that difficult to understand. After all, skeptics use arguments against Christianity. But many Christians do not buy them. Does that mean the arguments are bad? Or does that mean that Christians aren't thinking rationally?

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:36 am

JLB32168 wrote: Excluded middle:

God perfectly reveals Himself to anyone unless s/he is deliberately obtuse.

Unsubstantiated claim: "Whoever does not believe in God is deliberately obtuse"

JLB32168 wrote: Let's use your argument for something else.

Evolution is the perfect explanation for how man arrived on the scene. Not all people accept evolution's conclusions; therefore, evolution is not the perfect explanation for how man arrived on the scene.

1. Evolution is not a "perfect explanation". It's a very good explanation. It's the best we have. But it isn't "perfect". If it were perfect, any and all research in the field of evolution would be a waste of time. The fact that there is still research being done on evolution tells us it is imperfect.

2. Scientists are not God. They are limited. In their limitations, they rely on limited means to explain evolution. If God were to explain evolution, he would have much greater means of doing so. God could, for example, show us how evolution works by showing us every single missing link between two points in evolution. Scientists do not have this ability. They have to make due with what's available.

3. Since I can conceive a better way for God to reveal himself, the current revelation is imperfect by definition.

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