Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned
If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)
Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?
Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
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- JoeyKnothead
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Post #11
From Post 3:
Post 4:
What's that line about once one done gives up, they set in on the slanders?
And...JLB32168 wrote: God perfectly reveals Himself to anyone unless s/he is deliberately obtuse.
Post 4:
Notice the theist is incapable of showing his god has "revealed" anything, but dangitall, "Religion'srealandy'allarepoopieheadsif'nyadon'tbelieve! "JehovahsWitness wrote: It is however possible God has no interest in forcing the unreasonable to see sense if they don't want to.
What's that line about once one done gives up, they set in on the slanders?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #12For some it may be enough. For many it's not. In fact I see the universe as evidence for any reasonable individual to conclude there is NO god.JehovahsWitness wrote:
The universe is in my opinion more than enough evidence for any reasonable individual to conclude there is a God.
The more I've learned about it, the more convinced I've become that we are here due to evolution.JehovahsWitness wrote:
And the more we learn about it and the life in it, the more it becomes a logical and scientific inevitability.
So then you admit that your god is apathetic?JehovahsWitness wrote:
It is however possible God has no interest in forcing the unreasonable to see sense if they don't want to.
If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.
Or perhaps the unreasonable would rather hold on to beliefs that "Goddidit"?JehovahsWitness wrote:
It is however possible God has no interest in forcing the unreasonable to see sense if they don't want to.
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #13Non-Christian strawman postulate: you argue against a made up god in a made up religion, not Christianity.OnceConvinced wrote:If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.
NONE of YHWH's loved ones are on the road to Hell, only those condemned already by HIS judgement against their evil. All His sheep who have gone astray into sin will be returned to Him. Period. All the sinful people of the kingdom aka the good seed will become mature in holiness and inevitably be safely brought into HIS barn. If GOD be for them who can be against them?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #14This coming from a guy who quoted a scripture in Romans that is obviously not true?ttruscott wrote:Non-Christian strawman postulate:OnceConvinced wrote:If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.
Your god is clearly an apathetic one if he's not willing to prove himself to even the most stubborn.
I would say that YOUR version of God is the made up one. The Christian one loves everyone not just his chosen few. "For god so loved the WORLD"ttruscott wrote: you argue against a made up god in a made up religion, not Christianity.
Contradiction of John 3:16ttruscott wrote: NONE of YHWH's loved ones are on the road to Hell, only those condemned already by HIS judgement against their evil.
But ok, so YOUR reason God won't make an effort for many of us is because he hates us? So it's not a matter of imperfection or indifference. It's a matter of hate.
Glad we have that settled.
No matter what you or the deluded and fallible Paul preach (and it is preaching), the evidence of the universe shows me evolution, not God.ttruscott wrote: All His sheep who have gone astray into sin will be returned to Him. Period. All the sinful people of the kingdom aka the good seed will become mature in holiness and inevitably be safely brought into HIS barn. If GOD be for them who can be against them?
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
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Post #15
[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]
Moderator Intervention
There have been several reports on this thread that all come down to the same problem: responses to the OP seem to be referring to their own beliefs as authoritative, and thus have violated the 'preaching' guidelines.
Remember, especially in a topic such as this one where it is so easy to cross that line, that NO religion is assumed to be 'true,' or 'the right one." Be careful to couch your responses with this in mind.
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Moderator Intervention
There have been several reports on this thread that all come down to the same problem: responses to the OP seem to be referring to their own beliefs as authoritative, and thus have violated the 'preaching' guidelines.
Remember, especially in a topic such as this one where it is so easy to cross that line, that NO religion is assumed to be 'true,' or 'the right one." Be careful to couch your responses with this in mind.
Rules
C&A Guidelines
______________
Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #16I don't believe in hell. I do believe in death though.OnceConvinced wrote: If my loved one was on the road to Hell I would do everything I possibly could to make them see sense. I wouldn't give up on them, like your god. If I could not accomplish that, then that would be a failure on my part. A god would surely not fail.
The point is, if the bible account is to be believed, Satan is not an atheist but he's still condemed to death so obviously accepting there is a god is no guarantee biblically that a person will avoid destruction. Salvation, I believe, is a matter of the heart and if a heart is wicked then it won't see anything but what it wants to see. Possibly God is simply selecting appropriate hearts to make contact with and judging others as being unworthy.
A possible 3rd option to consider.
JW
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #17If God came down here and made a bet with me that I could never get his servant JehovasWitness to curse God to his face, I'd believe in God too, just like Satan does.JehovahsWitness wrote: Satan is not an atheist but he's still condemed to death so obviously accepting there is a god is no guarantee biblically that a person will avoid destruction.
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #18Talishi wrote:If God came down here and made a bet with me that I could never get his servant JehovasWitness to curse God to his face, I'd believe in God too, just like Satan does.JehovahsWitness wrote: Satan is not an atheist but he's still condemed to death so obviously accepting there is a god is no guarantee biblically that a person will avoid destruction.
Yes, that's my point, but the bible says he's still going to be destroyed. I'm not saying to have to believe the bible is true if you don't want to, I'm just saying that is what the bible presents his fate to be despite the fact that he isn't an atheist.
JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #19[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]
There is a logical problem lurking here.
According to Thomas Aquinas, God cannot perform a contradiction.
According to Christian doctrine (and common sense) man is equipped with freewill.
Thus, God cannot at the same time give man freewill while withholding from him freewill.
Now, if a given man does not want to believe in God, because such belief entails changes in his lifestyle, is it a failure of God that he cannot bring the man to belief by argumentation?
This is not that difficult to understand. After all, skeptics use arguments against Christianity. But many Christians do not buy them. Does that mean the arguments are bad? Or does that mean that Christians aren't thinking rationally?
There is a logical problem lurking here.
According to Thomas Aquinas, God cannot perform a contradiction.
According to Christian doctrine (and common sense) man is equipped with freewill.
Thus, God cannot at the same time give man freewill while withholding from him freewill.
Now, if a given man does not want to believe in God, because such belief entails changes in his lifestyle, is it a failure of God that he cannot bring the man to belief by argumentation?
This is not that difficult to understand. After all, skeptics use arguments against Christianity. But many Christians do not buy them. Does that mean the arguments are bad? Or does that mean that Christians aren't thinking rationally?
Re: Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?
Post #20Unsubstantiated claim: "Whoever does not believe in God is deliberately obtuse"JLB32168 wrote: Excluded middle:
God perfectly reveals Himself to anyone unless s/he is deliberately obtuse.
1. Evolution is not a "perfect explanation". It's a very good explanation. It's the best we have. But it isn't "perfect". If it were perfect, any and all research in the field of evolution would be a waste of time. The fact that there is still research being done on evolution tells us it is imperfect.JLB32168 wrote: Let's use your argument for something else.
Evolution is the perfect explanation for how man arrived on the scene. Not all people accept evolution's conclusions; therefore, evolution is not the perfect explanation for how man arrived on the scene.
2. Scientists are not God. They are limited. In their limitations, they rely on limited means to explain evolution. If God were to explain evolution, he would have much greater means of doing so. God could, for example, show us how evolution works by showing us every single missing link between two points in evolution. Scientists do not have this ability. They have to make due with what's available.
3. Since I can conceive a better way for God to reveal himself, the current revelation is imperfect by definition.