Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?

[Justin108]

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

[Justin108]

Lots of people lied about hiding Jews in their basements in WWII. I know of one bishop who forged baptismal certificates for Jews to spirit them out of occupied Bulgaria.

Don't try to change my scenario to make it morally ambiguous. This guy lied about stealing a cookie. There, we have two sins now.

Is it justice for this atheist to go to hell while the repenting Christian murderer/rapist goes to heaven?

Lying is not categorically evil

It's funny how you always criticize atheists for making up their own moral standards. Yet here you are, confidently telling me lying is not categorically evil. Did you
a) Read this in scripture?
b) Figure it out yourself?

If a), kindly quote scripture telling us lying is sometimes permissible.

[Talishi]

If a), kindly quote scripture telling us lying is sometimes permissible.

Paul admits to withholding Advanced Truth because he figured people weren't ready for Truth 101. That's a kind of lie, or at least arrogance. In court they want the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

1 Cor. 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

[JLB32168]

I'm pointing out how the analogy is a false one. Perhaps you'd be better off using a different one?

I think the analogy is sufficient and is an accurate one. You disagree. Oh well, neither of us will most likely change our minds. I’m cool with that.

When I say "your own child" they could either be adult or children. My children are adults now but I still call them my children.

That doesn’t change anything I said. Adults who make bad decisions of their own free will can’t blame someone else – even whom they call “Father.�

That's clearly not true. I begged and begged God to help me when I started losing my faith. Didn't do an ounce of good. I cried out for that line to be thrown to me. It never was.

Aside from the fact that it seems you’re furious and disappointed w/an entity you no longer believe exists, lots have people have done the same thing – Mother Teresa being one of them. Why did they come to different conclusions? Was their struggle a bed of roses or worse than yours? Did you attempt to seek Truth in other confessions that perhaps didn’t teach the same things you had been taught? Did you consider the possibility that bad theology was blinding you to God’s voice?

• 1) Literal Creation gave me problems. I learned that the EOC has never taught a literal creation – even when it was a perfectly acceptable view to hold.
  
  2) God is wrathful gave me problems. I learned that the EOC teaches that God is impassible (no change in emotion) – even in Western theology. Wrath indicates a change in emotion. The West has never addressed this clear problem. The East did – centuries ago. “Wrath� is described not as God’s change of emotion, but as a consequence of placing oneself at the mercy of God’s enemies. The person who leaves a sunlit path and ventures into the dark forest where s/he’s attacked by wolves doesn’t conclude that the sun is punishing him/her for moving off the path.
  
  3) Christ sacrificed Himself to the Father to appease the latter’s infinite offence also gave me troubles – how could God demand the sacrifice of someone perfect. The East never taught that. Christ didn’t sacrifice Himself to the Father. He sacrificed Himself to an abstract – death. Christ didn’t sacrifice to anyone just as the man who seals off his flooding bulkhead from the inside so that the ship won’t sink and kill everyone else. He sacrifices himself, but not to anyone. Instead he’s sacrificing himself for people.

Your struggle is your struggle but some of us have had the same struggle. Why is it that you rejected while others accepted and grew in their faith? Are they gullible? . . . less intelligent?

[Justin108]

I'm pointing out how the analogy is a false one. Perhaps you'd be better off using a different one?

I think the analogy is sufficient and is an accurate one. You disagree. Oh well, neither of us will most likely change our minds. I’m cool with that.

The analogy is clearly not fitting. A man throwing a line into water is clearly visible. You cannot say "I didn't know you threw a line in the water". Jesus' salvation is not clearly visible and we cannot be certain it exists. In your analogy, the man rejects the line out of refusal to take it. In the real world instance, atheists reject Jesus because they do not believe in Jesus as the son of God. If Jesus himself appeared to me and said "hey, wanna be saved?" I would accept salvation because the "line" is now clearly visible to me.

Did you consider the possibility that bad theology was blinding you to God’s voice?

Did you consider the possibility that bad theology was blinding you to Allah's voice? What if you're not a Muslim simply because you're just not trying hard enough to understand Islam?

Your struggle is your struggle but some of us have had the same struggle. Why is it that you rejected while others accepted and grew in their faith? Are they gullible? . . . less intelligent?

Why is it that you rejected Islam while others accepted and grew in their faith in Islam? Are they gullible?...less intelligent?

[JLB32168]

Don't try to change my scenario to make it morally ambiguous. This guy lied about stealing a cookie. There, we have two sins now.

The fact of the matter is that lying is not categorically wrong so your example – that an atheist lies goes to hell because he never repents of it – is an argument that has lost its teeth.
Aside from that, do you think the purpose of prisons is primary to punish or to reform? If it is the latter, then why do you take issue with a rapist who sees the error of his ways?

kindly quote scripture telling us lying is sometimes permissible.

I’m not a sola scriptura advocate, namely, that God stopped revealing when the canon was solemnized, but I can cite a scripture.

• [font=Times New Roman]When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if itis a daughter, then she shall live.â€� But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?â€� And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.â€�
  
  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them. [emphasis jlb’s][/font]

Is that one good enough?

[JLB32168]

The analogy is clearly not fitting. A man throwing a line into water is clearly visible. You cannot say "I didn't know you threw a line in the water". Jesus' salvation is not clearly visible and we cannot be certain it exists.

It’s a good message. People say they have experienced it and even seen Him with their own eyes (Christian mystics say they experience it all of the time.) People ascribe spontaneous healings done in the name of their faith all of the time. You say that it is only science that we haven’t nailed down yet. Atheists write off all evidence as A) misunderstandings, B) wishful thinking manifesting itself as a psychotic break or mass hysteria, C) science, the mechanism of which hasn't been discovered, or D) outright lies. When you get evidence you conclude that it is always false and find ways to discredit it and say, “No one has shown me anything.� That’s not my responsibility.

Did you consider the possibility that bad theology was blinding you to Allah's voice? What if you're not a Muslim simply because you're just not trying hard enough to understand Islam?

Yup. I considered it and rejected it. Once I had rejected it I saw icons weep chrism (olive oil mixed with ground up frankincense) and other such miraculous events.

Again – this evidence is written off as parlor tricks.

Why is it that you rejected Islam while others accepted and grew in their faith in Islam?

The message of Islam – their very revelation of God – calls for the extermination of infidels. The NT calls for praying for them – the actions of some Christians notwithstanding.

That’s why.

[Justin108]

kindly quote scripture telling us lying is sometimes permissible.

I’m not a sola scriptura advocate, namely, that God stopped revealing when the canon was solemnized, but I can cite a scripture.

• [font=Times New Roman]When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if itis a daughter, then she shall live.â€� But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?â€� And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.â€�
  
  Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them. [emphasis jlb’s][/font]

Is that one good enough?

This scenario clearly had good moral intent. The guy who stole a cookie was just being selfish. There is no greater good in his stealing a cookie other than his desire for the cookie.

My point is not to present a morally ambiguous atheist. My point is to present an atheist who has clearly sinned for selfish reasons, but who's crime is significantly less severe than that of a repentant serial killer.

I can't make the scenario any clearer: the hypothetical atheist stole a cookie (theft) and lied about it, thereby committing two sins. These were not for the sake of some greater good, or in order to save a life. His motivation was purely selfish in nature. Not only did he take what does not belong to him, he lied about it to hide his guilt.

[JLB32168]

This scenario clearly had good moral intent. The guy who stole a cookie was just being selfish. There is no greater good in his stealing a cookie other than his desire for the cookie.

So, is it your contention that if one tells a lie – and commits no sin of any other type – that s/he will go to Hell, according to Christian theology?

I'd like to see you support that.

Aside from that, you’ve not addressed anything else in my post. Is it because you can’t?

[Justin108]

People say they have experienced it and even seen Him with their own eyes (Christian mystics say they experience it all of the time.) People ascribe spontaneous healings done in the name of their faith all of the time.

People also say they've experienced alien abduction. Do you believe these people?

When you get evidence you conclude that it is always false and find ways to discredit it and say, “No one has shown me anything.� That’s not my responsibility.

Do you believe in aliens? If not, the exact same can be said about you.

Yup. I considered it and rejected it. Once I had rejected it I saw icons weep chrism (olive oil mixed with ground up frankincense) and other such miraculous events.

I myself have not seen any icons weeping chrism despite having been a believer for 17+ years. I have about as much reason to reject Christianity as you do in rejecting Islam. So how can you reject Islam yet criticize me for rejecting Christianity?

Again – this evidence is written off as parlor tricks.

Do you write photos of Bigfoot off as parlor tricks? Or are you a believer in Bigfoot?

The message of Islam – their very revelation of God – calls for the extermination of infidels.

2 Chronicles 15:13
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

I could also dig up the verses about stoning homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath to death if you'd like?

[Justin108]

This scenario clearly had good moral intent. The guy who stole a cookie was just being selfish. There is no greater good in his stealing a cookie other than his desire for the cookie.

So, is it your contention that if one tells a lie – and commits no sin of any other type – that s/he will go to Hell, according to Christian theology?

I'd like to see you support that.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.�

Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die.

Aside from that, you’ve not addressed anything else in my post. Is it because you can’t?

I must have missed them. Please refer me to the points I failed to address