Where did the 3 Kings go?

[marco]

We learn that the baby Jesus was visited by three kings, wise men or magi. They came to see him and then disappeared into the shadows of history or fiction. So we ask:

What was the point of their visit?
In what way did it affect history?
If they are just symbolic, unreal figures - what is their purpose?

More importantly, does this mythology - if it is mythology - destroy belief in Christ?

[Student]

It is rather like McDougal appearing in Macbeth from nowhere and returning to nowhere. It makes one to wonder most greatly about the gospel account, does it not?

McDougal? That can only be a character in the truly bizarre yet unforgettable "Magic Roundabout" production of Macbeth.

[marco]

It is rather like McDougal appearing in Macbeth from nowhere and returning to nowhere. It makes one to wonder most greatly about the gospel account, does it not?

McDougal? That can only be a character in the truly bizarre yet unforgettable "Magic Roundabout" production of Macbeth.

The very same play, Student. And in Hamlet we find the relevant lines

"The play's the thing
Where in we'll catch the reason for the King."

But I can't quite get the reason for their appearance in Matthew's play.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 7 by Tired of the Nonsense]

If you presumably have evidence that there were Persian Magi, or Parsi (Farsi) originated in the Pars regions of ancient Iran, why pray tell could the gospel accounts not be alluding to such ones?

You are correct the bible doesn't provide the names of the travellers, but you seem to be under the misconception that Matthew refered to there being three of them in number, which he does not.

JW

You are right. Matthew does not specify their number, nor does he call them kings or wise men. The common Christian tradition that there were three of them and that they were named Melchior, Caspar and Balthazar originated centuries later and is not found in Gospel Matthew. Gospel Matthew is the only source for this story, and the author refers to them in the original Greek as "Magi." The Magi were known to history. They were Zoroasterian priests, astrologers famous for their learning, and reputed to have mystical powers. Their name "Magi" is the root for our words "magic" and "magician." I already detailed this in post #5 above. Here is the Wikipedia link for a more complete description of the Magi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

A little historical background is needed here. In 539 BC when Cyrus the Great of Persia, who was a follower of the Zoroastrian God Ahura Mazda, defeated Babylon and gave the Jewish people the option to return to their homeland, or to remain within the Persian empire. Many returned, and many stayed. Over the course of the next six centuries there was a steady emigration of those with Jewish background from Persia back to Jerusalem. They would become a distinctly separate group within Jewish culture because of the Persian influenced religious beliefs they held in common which their Jewish beliefs. They would be known as Pharisees, or Farsi (Parsi; Persians).

Persian Language
Wikipedia

"Persian is a pluricentric language and its grammar is similar to that of many contemporary European languages. Persian is also so called due to its origin from the capital of the Achaemenid empire, Persis (Fars or Pars) hence the name Persian (Farsi or Parsi). "
Persian language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language

BBC
Zoroaster
The Prophet Zoroaster The Prophet Zoroaster ©
Zoroastrianism was founded by the Prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra) in ancient Iran approximately 3500 years ago.

The precise date of the founding of Zoroastrianism is uncertain. An approximate date of 1200-1500 BCE has been established through archaeological evidence and linguistic comparisons with the Hindu text, the Rig Veda.
www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroas ... ance.shtml

Zoroaster (Zarathrustra) lived circa the mid to late second millennium BC, and his primary message was of monotheism. There is only only one God of all creation, whom he called the Wise Lord, Ahura Mazda. At the time of Zoroaster, the Jews were henotheistic in their beliefs.

Henotheism
Noun
the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods

After the Babylonian exile the Jews were clearly and uniformly monotheistic in their beliefs. The OT god was distinctly harsh and vindictive however, as opposed to the Persian God Ahura Mazda who was wise and loving, a concept of God that is much more in keeping with the modern NT Christian concept of the loving God Jehovah. Ahura Mazda literally means "Lord Wise." The Mazda Motor company chose the word Mazda for it's company name precisely because the word means "wise."

Modern Christianity has, arguably, more in common with ancient Persian beliefs than it does with Jewish beliefs. The Persians believed that 1,000 years after Zoroaster a direct ancestor of his would be born, and this individual would be the Messiah. He would sit at the right hand of Ahura Mazda and would be be the judge of mankind during the Final Judgement. Sound familiar? This belief was well known and already extremely popular throughout the Mediterranean world in the 1st century AD.

"Although a definite borrowing is still impossible to prove, the resemblances between Zoroastrianism and Judaism are numerous and probably took shape during the exile. First of all the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, the enemy of God. Secondly,the figure of the Messiah, originally a future king of Israel who would save his people from oppression evolved,in Deutro-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshant(Savior). Thirdly, the entities that came to surround Yahweh, such as His wisdom and His spirit are comparable to the arch angels escorting Ahura Mazda; other points of comparison include the doctrine of the millenia; the Last Judgement; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the resurrection, the final transformation of the Earth; paradise of Heaven on Earth or in Heaven. Christianity seems to owe many features to Iran over and above those inherited from Judaism. Among others are probably the belief in guardian angels, resurrection and the heavenly journey of the soul."(Encyclopedia Americana,"Zoroastrianism"pp.813-815).

These were the beliefs of the Pharisees, the "Farsi" or Persian influenced believers in Jewish society. As opposed to the beliefs of the Sadducees who accepted only the Torah as authoritative.

Acts 23:
[8] For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

It is to this faction, the Pharisees or Persian influenced Jews that the author of Gospel Matthew is indicating that Jesus was the fulfillment of ancient prophesy.

[Blastcat]

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[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Of course there is scientific proof!
The magi are the three stars in Orion's Belt that point to the star Sirius also known as the star Osiris.
Near the equator, Sirius, dips below the horizon near the 13th lunar month, and only the Magi point his location, until it comes back on the 25th of December.

The gifts of gold and aphrodisiacs, I am convinced is a Roman perversion: The son of the God Augustus, Tiberius, a demi-god born about the same time as Jesus was allegedly born, loved gold and aphrodisiacs, so I think he wanted to be worshiped by proxy.

Where are the magi? Right where they have always been.

[Blastcat]

Moderator removed one-line, non-contributing post. Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

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[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Of course their is scientific proof!
The magi are the three star in Orion's Belt that point to the star Sirius also known as the star Osiris.
Near the equator, Sirius, dips below the horizon near the 13th lunar month, and only the Magi point his location, until it comes back on the 25th of December.

The gifts of gold and aphrodisiacs, I am convinced is a Roman perversion: The son of the God Augustus, Tiberius, a demi-god born about the same time as Jesus was allegedly born, loved gold and aphrodisiacs, so I think he wanted to be worshiped by proxy.

Where are the magi? Right where they have always been.

Your opinions aren't facts . but you have a great imagination

My opinion is astronomy?!

You mean I made up the three stars in Orion's belt and Sirius?

Who am I? God?



Correction above - Osiris doesn't disappear for the last lunar month, the period is 70 days... similar story, different myth.

Sometimes Osiris is Isis.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 16 by Blastcat]

Point of Order, Job was recorded officially in 7 BCE, was reported to take place before 1750 BCE. However Job 38:31

"Can you direct the movement of the stars--binding the cluster of the Pleiades or loosening the cords of Orion?"

But Orion and Pleiades didn't exist as constellations until 270 BC, and certainly didn't have the myths of motions or beltiness.
Whoops!

PS the Belt of Orion is known as the three kings.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

We learn that the baby Jesus was visited by three kings, wise men or magi. They came to see him and then disappeared into the shadows of history or fiction. So we ask:

What was the point of their visit?
In what way did it affect history?
If they are just symbolic, unreal figures - what is their purpose?

More importantly, does this mythology - if it is mythology - destroy belief in Christ?

To more directly address Marco's OP, here is what Wikipedia has to say about what happened to the Magi.

Wikipedia
Biblical Magi
Martyrdom traditions
Christian Scriptures record nothing about the Biblical Magi after reporting their going back to their own country. Two separate traditions have surfaced claiming that they were so moved by their encounter with Jesus that they either became Christians on their own or were quick to convert fully upon later encountering an Apostle of Jesus. The traditions claim that they were so strong in their beliefs that they willingly embraced martyrdom.

Chronicon of Dexter
One tradition gained popularity in Spain during the 17th century, it was found in a work called the Chronicon of Dexter. The work was ascribed to Flavius Lucius Dexter the bishop of Barcelona, under Theodosius the Great. The tradition appears in the form of a simple martyrology reading "In Arabia Felix, in the city of Sessania of the Adrumeti, the martyrdom of the holy kings, the three Magi, Gaspar, Balthassar, and Melchior who adored Christ."[49] First appearing in 1610, the Chronicon of Dexter was immensely popular along with the traditions it contained throughout the 17th century – later this was all brought into question when historians and the Catholic hierarchy in Rome declared the work a pious forgery.[50]
Relics at Cologne[edit]

The Three Wise Kings, Catalan Atlas, 1375, Fol. V. "TARSHISH—This province is called Tarshish, from which came the Three Wise Kings, and they came to Bethlehem in Judaea with their gifts and worshipped Jesus Christ, and they are entombed in the city of Cologne two days journey from Bruges."

A competing tradition asserts that the Biblical Magi "were martyred for the faith, and that their bodies were first venerated at Constantinople; thence they were transferred to Milan in 344. It is certain that when Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor (Barbarossa) imposed his authority on Milan, the relics there were transferred to Cologne Cathedral, housed in the Shrine of the Three Kings, and are venerated there today."[49] The Milanese treated the fragments of masonry from their now empty tomb as secondary relics and these were widely distributed around the region, including southern France, accounting for the frequency with which the Magi appear on chasse reliquaries in Limoges enamel.[51]
Tombs[edit]

There are several traditions on where the remains of the Magi are located, although none of the traditions is considered as an established fact or even as particularly likely by secular history.

The Shrine of the Three Kings in Cologne Cathedral, Germany.
Marco Polo claimed that he was shown the three tombs of the Magi at Saveh south of Tehran in the 1270s:

In Persia is the city of Saba, from which the Three Magi set out and in this city they are buried, in three very large and beautiful monuments, side by side. And above them there is a square building, beautifully kept. The bodies are still entire, with hair and beard remaining.

— Marco Polo, Polo, Marco, The Book of the Million, book i.
A Shrine of the Three Kings at Cologne Cathedral, according to tradition, contains the bones of the Three Wise Men. Reputedly they were first discovered by Saint Helena on her famous pilgrimage to Palestine and the Holy Lands. She took the remains to the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople; they were later moved to Milan (some sources say by the city's bishop, Eustorgius I[52]), before being sent to their current resting place by the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I in 1164. The Milanese celebrate their part in the tradition by holding a medieval costume parade every 6 January.
A version of the detailed elaboration familiar to us is laid out by the 14th century cleric John of Hildesheim's Historia Trium Regum ("History of the Three Kings"). In accounting for the presence in Cologne of their mummified relics, he begins with the journey of Helena, mother of Constantine I to Jerusalem, where she recovered the True Cross and other relics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi

So, although they were entirely unnamed and unnumbered in Gospel Matthew, as the years passed the acquired a specific number, three, and names, Melchior, Caspar and
Balthazar in the western church, Larvandad, Gushnasaph, and Hormisdas by the Syrian church. They were converted to Christianity, died martyrs deaths, and were sainted according to Christian tradition. Their shrines and the venerated bones are to be found in various different locations according to the various different traditions.

Questioning the historical record of these three Magi... I find it harder to believe you are educated in such matters, then to believe you raise a reasonable doubt to the validity of the story based on the historical record of three Magi.

Answer me these questions... What country are we not getting these historical writings from (specifically)? Where the three Magi were from? And how many people can you name from that region or country? Historically speaking, from that time period, how many people can you name? And of those people, how many Magi's can you name?

Since you are apparently educated in these matters MadeNew, what is your definitive conclusion on the Magi?

[marco]

My opinion is astronomy?!

You mean I made up the three stars in Orion's belt and Sirius?

To be fair, Willum, you are basing your opinion on astronomy. And it is a clever idea, associating the tale that centres round the Star of Bethlehem with the three kings.
Prof David Hughes, an astronomer from Sheffield University, suggested the following explanation of the star:

"Hughes's best explanation for this series of events is something known as a triple conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn - with the two planets coming close together in the sky three times over a short period.

"[This happens when] you get an alignment between the Sun, the Earth, Jupiter and Saturn," says Hughes. "

All this assumes that there is some truth in the improbable Christmas tale.