When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

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Zzyzx
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When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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When were the gospels written? Does it matter?
We can say with a great deal of confidence that all four books were in existence by about AD 90 given the distribution of the books in all the churches. Almost all scholars will give a significantly earlier date to the four books, although some put the book of John as late as the 80s AD. A general consensus of conservative scholars puts Mark at about AD 60-65. Some even put Mark in the 50s AD. Matthew and Luke are usually given a date of writing of about AD 60-70 and John AD 70-90. These are obviously rough approximations. Such dates are based on guesses about which authors relied on the others. For instance, it is not unreasonable (though not proven) to think that Mark was a source for Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke relate prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem (which happened in AD 70) which seems to support these books being published before AD 70. John shows evidence of response to gnostic ideas, likely implying a later date of writing. It is also believed that John lived significantly longer than the other gospel writers. The arguments for the date of writing of these books can get rather obtuse. If you want to get a feeling for these arguments, you should pick up a detailed commentary on each of the gospels and consider carefully the arguments of the authors. A good commentary will present more than one theory and the evidence for the different dates of authorship.

I wish I could give exact dates, but to be honest, we simply do not know the dates these books were written.

http://evidenceforchristianity.org/what ... o-we-know/
Bold added

Notice that 60s CE would be three decades after Jesus is said to have died – and 90 CE would be sixty years after.

Yet, some attempt to claim that writers personally witnessed events and had perfect word-for-word memory of conversations.

As a person of seventy-six I am quite aware that I cannot describe in accurate detail events from thirty or sixty years ago and darn sure cannot recite word-for-word extended conversations. But then, I don't claim to be magic.

I could, however, write stories that made it sound as though I knew about or witnessed things (that I did not) from thirty or sixty years ago – and write detailed accounts of conversations. I might even hear about such things from folklore or oral tradition (“Uncle Joe did such and such and Aunt Mary said so and so�).

If Christian scholars and theologians do not know when gospels were written, do not know by whom they were written, do not know their sources of information HOW can anyone rationally claim that the stories are true and accurate accounts of events and conversations that really happened?
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Kapyong
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Post #61

Post by Kapyong »

Gday JLB32168 and all,
JLB32168 wrote: As for the different versions, they’re not appreciably different and I can’t imagine God gets upset over it.
They are quite different.
But the issue is not whether God is upset at all - why did you try and change the subject ?

The issue is whether the alleged Oral Tradition passed on information such as the Lord's Prayer correctly.

The evidence of several different versions of the Lord's Prayer is written proof of FAILURE. If it had worked, there would be exactly ONE version.

These are the actual WORDS of JESUS himself !
But this vaunted Oral Tradition couldn't even get that right.

Nor could it get anything else right as far as we can see - the names of the Twelve Apostle, the last words on the cross, the different birth stories, the wildly different Easter morning stories etc. etc.
JLB32168 wrote: What if Christ gave two versions of the prayer?
What ?
Is that now your claim ?
Or do you just make up anything that might vaguely support your beliefs ?

JLB32168 wrote: Can you give an example of a contradiction?
Do you seriously not know any of the many famous contradictions in the NT ?

The different genealogies ?
The different birth stories ?
The different days of the crucifixion ?
The totally different Easter Sunday stories ?

Have you looked at Dan Barker's Easter challenge ?
http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php

Let me know when you have read and answered all those contradictions, here are two more examples :

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
John: No ascension
Paul: No ascension
Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)


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Re: When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

Post #62

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all,
bjs wrote: Some scholars argue that the authorship of the Gospels cannot be reasonably known. Others argue that it can. There is not currently a consensus.
The vast majority of modern NT scholars argue that the authors of the Gospels are unknown, I can name many. Furthermore, this consensus is agreed and remarked upon by said scholars, I can provide quotes.

There are almost NONE who argue the authors are known (apart from faithful believers who still believe the traditional beliefs.)

That is a consensus.

Believers haven't caught up with the news yet.

bjs wrote: and even if there were for either side then this would be the logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority.
Wrong.
That fallacy is when you ask, say, the Pope for his view on evolution - i.e. he is an authority only, but has no expertise.

But,
the consensus of current experts in the field is not a fallacy - it has to be considered (although one can possibly disagree on some detail.)

Seriously - anyone who is abreast of NT studies knows that the Gospel authors are considered unknown - apart from a few faithful holdouts.


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Post #63

Post by JLB32168 »

Kapyong wrote:They [the two examples of the Lord’s prayer] are quite different.
You’re entitled to your opinion that they are quite different. I disagree.
Kapyong wrote:The evidence of several different versions of the Lord's Prayer is written proof of FAILURE. If it had worked, there would be exactly ONE version.
Returning to my own personal opinion that doesn’t require inerrancy of Scripture, the fact that Lord’s prayer made it to us in substantially the same version, is proof that the oral tradition was successful.

And you’re also forgetting my point that Christ could have easily spoken on the prayer on more than one occasion and offered different versions. As to why the Church preferred Matthew’s version over Luke’s, I would conclude that it was more comprehensive.

And I find your hyperbole (e.g. “wildly different,� “totally different,� ) to be funny. I stubbed my toe – correction – I utterly, completed destroyed my four digit on the bed post this morning.
Kapyong wrote:Is that now your claim ? Or do you just make up anything that might vaguely support your beliefs ?
I’ll infer from your illogical argumentum ad ridiculum that you can’t rebut the point and chose to ridicule it instead – probably because it’s a possibility that you have to concede might be the case.

The rest of your points might trouble a literalist inerrantist but I’m not that person.

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Post #64

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 61 by Kapyong]
The issue is whether the alleged Oral Tradition passed on information such as the Lord's Prayer correctly.

The evidence of several different versions of the Lord's Prayer is written proof of FAILURE. If it had worked, there would be exactly ONE version.

These are the actual WORDS of JESUS himself !
But this vaunted Oral Tradition couldn't even get that right.
Not only that, but they got the language wrong!!! Jesus spoke aramaic; the gospels are written in Greek. So already, they can't be trustworthy.

And as every historian of any subject knows, unless what is reported is in the same language, and is identical in all its appearances, it must be thrown out.

...err, wait, is that true....?

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