When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

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Zzyzx
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When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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When were the gospels written? Does it matter?
We can say with a great deal of confidence that all four books were in existence by about AD 90 given the distribution of the books in all the churches. Almost all scholars will give a significantly earlier date to the four books, although some put the book of John as late as the 80s AD. A general consensus of conservative scholars puts Mark at about AD 60-65. Some even put Mark in the 50s AD. Matthew and Luke are usually given a date of writing of about AD 60-70 and John AD 70-90. These are obviously rough approximations. Such dates are based on guesses about which authors relied on the others. For instance, it is not unreasonable (though not proven) to think that Mark was a source for Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke relate prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem (which happened in AD 70) which seems to support these books being published before AD 70. John shows evidence of response to gnostic ideas, likely implying a later date of writing. It is also believed that John lived significantly longer than the other gospel writers. The arguments for the date of writing of these books can get rather obtuse. If you want to get a feeling for these arguments, you should pick up a detailed commentary on each of the gospels and consider carefully the arguments of the authors. A good commentary will present more than one theory and the evidence for the different dates of authorship.

I wish I could give exact dates, but to be honest, we simply do not know the dates these books were written.

http://evidenceforchristianity.org/what ... o-we-know/
Bold added

Notice that 60s CE would be three decades after Jesus is said to have died – and 90 CE would be sixty years after.

Yet, some attempt to claim that writers personally witnessed events and had perfect word-for-word memory of conversations.

As a person of seventy-six I am quite aware that I cannot describe in accurate detail events from thirty or sixty years ago and darn sure cannot recite word-for-word extended conversations. But then, I don't claim to be magic.

I could, however, write stories that made it sound as though I knew about or witnessed things (that I did not) from thirty or sixty years ago – and write detailed accounts of conversations. I might even hear about such things from folklore or oral tradition (“Uncle Joe did such and such and Aunt Mary said so and so�).

If Christian scholars and theologians do not know when gospels were written, do not know by whom they were written, do not know their sources of information HOW can anyone rationally claim that the stories are true and accurate accounts of events and conversations that really happened?
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Post #41

Post by JLB32168 »

Kapyong wrote: On the contrary - if the Oral Tradition had worked, we would have exactly ONE copy of the Lord's Prayer - the one that Jesus allegedly taught.
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion that discrepancies automatically means failure in Oral Tradition. I regard the transmission of the Kerygma to be sufficient to evidence success. Of course, I don’t think that the Bible must be inerrant in word so the point is somewhat irrelevant.
Since Luke implies he wasn’t a direct witness, then the fact that it is different is negligible for me.
rikuoamero wrote:Then why do you believe it [The truth of eternal life as promised by the Judeo-Christian deity cannot be known this side of death.]? You yourself have not died. You are still alive. This statement of yours excludes YOU.
First of all, I know of people who say they have received direct revelation from God and am not willing to write all of them off as victims of psychotic breaks. Atheists do. While I do believe in evolution, I believe in evolution of the theistic variety. The idea that the Universe is a product of random chance is beyond absurd to me, and is as idiotic for me as virgins having babies is idiotic for the atheist. I hope that explains it.
rikuoamero wrote:Now you're trying to take back the argument we've been having for several posts?
No, but I’m able to argue both positions. First of all, it is fact that some people have atypical memories that can remember things w/100% accuracy and precision. Secondly, if a deity exists, s/he/it could assist in this happening. Do you disagree with these two premises? The first one you have to concede as true. As to the 2nd, I’m not saying a deity exists. I’m saying that if one existed and s/he/it was omnipotent, then the question of memory of details is insignificant.
Now, having said all that, I don’t think that God authored the Scripture. I think men were inspired to write it and that they got the essentials right. The numbers of angels at the tomb, for example, isn’t essential.

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Post #42

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 41 by JLB32168]

JLB, what you're writing doesn't make any sense. You're simultaneously arguing for the gospel authors and/or the people they heard from to have 100% reliable memories, AND for there to be no problem with there being differences in topics such as the Lord's Prayer.
These two positions are irreconcilable. They don't fit together. Three Gospels record the last supper as taking place on the first day of Passover. One Gospel says it happened the day before, with the crucifixion being on the first day of Passover.
According to you, all the gospel authors, and their sources, had 100% reliable memory, and may or may not now have had divine assistance.
We CANNOT have both 100% reliability AND discrepancies. I think you mentioned a good while back that you are/were a school teacher. Did you ever give a 100% grade to a student, while at the same time marking one or more of their answers on the test wrong?
The numbers of angels at the tomb, for example, isn’t essential.
It is if one is arguing in favour of 100% reliable memories.
First of all, I know of people who say they have received direct revelation from God
So am I. So far, every single person on this forum who has both claimed communication with/from God and to have read my sheet of paper challenge has failed at that challenge.
and am not willing to write all of them off as victims of psychotic breaks. Atheists do.
Since when do atheists write of ALL these people as being psychotic? I'm not aware of a single atheist on this website who has. I certainly don't. Some are victims of mental illness, yes. Others are liars. At absolute best, not a single one of these claimants has proven their claim.
While I do believe in evolution, I believe in evolution of the theistic variety. The idea that the Universe is a product of random chance is beyond absurd to me, and is as idiotic for me as virgins having babies is idiotic for the atheist. I hope that explains it.
This has nothing at all to do with the question I asked. Why bring up evolution?
First of all, it is fact that some people have atypical memories that can remember things w/100% accuracy and precision.
I'm not sure about a literal 100% but yes, there are documented cases of an extremely high percentage of recall.
Secondly, if a deity exists, s/he/it could assist in this happening.
If I exist, I could help build or repair your computer. This though doesn't then translate to "I most certainly DID repair your computer", just the same as a hypothetical deity who has powers to assist memory does not automatically mean that it ever did or ever will.
As to the 2nd, I’m not saying a deity exists.
Can we get that on record? JLB who has been on this site since last November and has long argued that a god does exist...is now not saying that a god exists?
I’m saying that if one existed and s/he/it was omnipotent, then the question of memory of details is insignificant.
Says the person who on this thread has argued that the gospel authors and/or their sources had 100% reliable memory. Preeeety sure that the question is very significant to the case that you're trying (and in my eyes, failing) to build.
Now, having said all that, I don’t think that God authored the Scripture.
No-one on this thread has so far claimed that. Again, you're defending against a charge that no-one has made.
I think men were inspired to write it and that they got the essentials right.
Which would be fine and dandy if you hadn't spent 5 pages arguing that the gospel authors and/or their sources had 100% reliable memory.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #43

Post by JLB32168 »

rikuoamero wrote: JLB, what you're writing doesn't make any sense. You're simultaneously arguing for the gospel authors and/or the people they heard from to have 100% reliable memories, AND for there to be no problem with there being differences in topics such as the Lord's Prayer.
No – I’m arguing a different view from mine and showing how it’s logical. Personally, I don’t think it’s true but it is logical; therefore, for a skeptic to say it’s irrational is false since logical/irrational makes no sense.
rikuoamero wrote:Three Gospels record the last supper as taking place on the first day of Passover. One Gospel says it happened the day before, with the crucifixion being on the first day of Passover.
I would suggest that the autograph might have been correct and that negligible discrepancies came in by copyists – were I a strict literalist. Personally, I think that the institution of the Eucharist is the essential scene. When it occurred is negligible as far as I’m concerned.
rikuoamero wrote:So am I. So far, every single person on this forum who has both claimed communication with/from God and to have read my sheet of paper challenge has failed at that challenge.
Okay. Is there a point or is your point that they’re all lying? Of course, when I say they’ve had revelations I’m talking about audible visions of Christ, his Mother, other saints, etc.
rikuoamero wrote:Since when do atheists write of ALL these people as being psychotic? I'm not aware of a single atheist on this website who has. I certainly don't. Some are victims of mental illness, yes. Others are liars. At absolute best, not a single one of these claimants has proven their claim.
If they’re not psychotic and not lying then what other options are there?
rikuoamero wrote:If I exist, I could help build or repair your computer. This though doesn't then translate to "I most certainly DID repair your computer", just the same as a hypothetical deity who has powers to assist memory does not automatically mean that it ever did or ever will.
You’re avoiding the obvious point that if one exists (whether or not one exists is a separate question; you’re conflating the two) then the thing you find impossible to believe would be easily possible.
rikuoamero wrote:Can we get that on record? JLB who has been on this site since last November and has long argued that a god does exist...is now not saying that a god exists?
I have never said, “A deity exists.� I have said, “I believe a deity exists� and the two are quite different. I assert what I can prove (something I’ve said on multiple occasions) and I can’t prove God exists so I don’t assert He does. It is a faith statement and that is all I’ve ever maintained.

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Post #44

Post by Zzyzx »

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JLB32168 wrote:
rikuoamero wrote: Since when do atheists write of ALL these people as being psychotic? I'm not aware of a single atheist on this website who has. I certainly don't. Some are victims of mental illness, yes. Others are liars. At absolute best, not a single one of these claimants has proven their claim.
If they’re not psychotic and not lying then what other options are there?
The "claimants" may have never made such claims in their writings. We do not have the original documents -- only hand copies of copies of copies with the earliest being centuries later (Fourth Century).

Were all copies exact and free of additons, modifications, inclusions, exclusions (deliberate or inadvertent)? We all should be aware that humans are falible and that tales retold can be expaned / exaggerated / and mangled. Pious fraud by later copiests, editors, revisionists is NOT unknown.
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Re: When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

Post #45

Post by bjs »

A few thoughts:

First, it is true that non-literate societies did focus more on memorizing teachings and descriptions of events in a word-for-word manner. That fact that most modern Americans do not do this is not important for this issue.

Second, concerning this paragraph:
Zzyzx wrote: If Christian scholars and theologians do not know when gospels were written, do not know by whom they were written, do not know their sources of information HOW can anyone rationally claim that the stories are true and accurate accounts of events and conversations that really happened?
The authors of Mark, Luke, and John can be known with some confidence, though of course we cannot be 100% sure. Matthew is the outlier in that we have little evidence to show who wrote that gospel.

The majority of ancient documents cannot be precisely dated. We often do not know the sources of information for ancient documents, and when we do know the sources it is even rarer that those sources are available to us today. The vast majority of historians do not consider any of these to be reasons to dismiss the information contained in those documents.



Perhaps most importantly, I want to focus on the second question asked in the title: Does it matter?

My answer is a resounding “No!� It does not matter to Christians or to non-Christians.

Orthodox Christianity has always held that the documents themselves are inspired. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the human author, which matters.

Non-theists often say something like, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.� In that phrase “extraordinary claims� usually means, “whatever I don’t currently believe,� and “extraordinary evidence� usually means, “whatever you don’t have.�

If the documents were transcribed as Jesus spoke, signed by the authors, and we had the complete originals available to us, then none of that would make a bit of difference. Christians would continue to believe based on faith in God, and non-theists would continue to reject any claims that don’t fit into their current worldview.

I am reminded of the quote from Stuart Chase. “For those believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.�
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #46

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all,
JLB32168 wrote: Personally, I think that the institution of the Eucharist is the essential scene. When it occurred is negligible as far as I’m concerned.
So,
first you say it's all 100% accurate.

But when shown many inaccuracies, now you say the inaccuracies are negligible.

So, that means you think the Lord's Prayer isn't important ?
Because of all the many different versions.


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Post #47

Post by Kapyong »

Gday JLB32168 and all,
Kapyong wrote: On the contrary - if the Oral Tradition had worked, we would have exactly ONE copy of the Lord's Prayer - the one that Jesus allegedly taught.
JLB32168 wrote: You’re certainly entitled to your opinion that discrepancies automatically means failure in Oral Tradition.
It's a plain fact -

ONE exact copy of the Lord's Prayer would obviously be SUCCESS (Christians endlessly point to the commonalities in the Gospels as proof as accuracy, while waving away all the obvious differences.)

Many DIFFERENT copies of the Lord's Prayer would be FAILURE to remember it.

What do we see ?

Many DIFFERENT copies.
FAILURE.

Like the many other failures which you ignored - the last words on the cross, the twelve apostles, the easter stories etc.
JLB32168 wrote: I regard the transmission of the Kerygma to be sufficient to evidence success.
But it was transmitted in many contradictory stories !
How can it be a success if we have DIFFERENT stories ?

What were the last words of Jesus ?
How can there be DIFFERENT versions if the Kerygma was transmitted successfully ?
JLB32168 wrote: Since Luke implies he wasn’t a direct witness, then the fact that it is different is negligible for me.
So the fact that Luke was not an eye-witness, that the Gospels all tell DIFFERENT stories - means nothing to you ?

But faithful Christian BELIEFS mean a lot apparently.


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Post #48

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all,
JLB32168 wrote: If they’re not psychotic and not lying then what other options are there?
Do, you REALLY believe there are only exactly three options ?
* lying
* psychotic
* truth

Which one applies to the writing of Shakespeare ?

What about Tolkien ?

What about the Old Testament tales of Adam and Eve ?

What about Homer ?


It's a ridiculous idea - there are MANY ways in which a writing might not be historically true.



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Re: When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

Post #49

Post by Kapyong »

Gday bjs and all,
bjs wrote: The authors of Mark, Luke, and John can be known with some confidence,
Such is the faithful belief of faithful believers.

Modern NT scholars however, agree that all the Gospels were anonymous and written by unknown persons.

In fact - NOT ONE of the NT books was written by anyone who ever met the alleged Jesus.

But faithful believers haven't got the news yet.


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Post #50

Post by tam »

Peace to you Kapyong (you have me curious as to whether or not that is a name, or a word that means something I just don't understand!) And G'day back to you!
In fact - NOT ONE of the NT books was written by anyone who ever met the alleged Jesus.


I don't think you can prove that statement true. I don't think there is any evidence to prove that statement true. There are guesses from scholars, based on how they interpret evidence, but not much more than that.

The gospel commonly attributed to John is claimed to have been written by the 'disciple Christ loved'; one who WAS an eyewitness. (that does not make the author John, mind you, but an apostle who was an eyewitness, yes) It is the only gospel of the four that makes this claim of being an eyewitness, and it is certainly possible that the author was indeed the disciple Christ loved, as claimed. So I don't think you can say that it is a fact that not one of the NT books was written by anyone who ever met Christ.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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