When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

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Zzyzx
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When were the gospels written? Does it matter?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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When were the gospels written? Does it matter?
We can say with a great deal of confidence that all four books were in existence by about AD 90 given the distribution of the books in all the churches. Almost all scholars will give a significantly earlier date to the four books, although some put the book of John as late as the 80s AD. A general consensus of conservative scholars puts Mark at about AD 60-65. Some even put Mark in the 50s AD. Matthew and Luke are usually given a date of writing of about AD 60-70 and John AD 70-90. These are obviously rough approximations. Such dates are based on guesses about which authors relied on the others. For instance, it is not unreasonable (though not proven) to think that Mark was a source for Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke relate prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem (which happened in AD 70) which seems to support these books being published before AD 70. John shows evidence of response to gnostic ideas, likely implying a later date of writing. It is also believed that John lived significantly longer than the other gospel writers. The arguments for the date of writing of these books can get rather obtuse. If you want to get a feeling for these arguments, you should pick up a detailed commentary on each of the gospels and consider carefully the arguments of the authors. A good commentary will present more than one theory and the evidence for the different dates of authorship.

I wish I could give exact dates, but to be honest, we simply do not know the dates these books were written.

http://evidenceforchristianity.org/what ... o-we-know/
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Notice that 60s CE would be three decades after Jesus is said to have died – and 90 CE would be sixty years after.

Yet, some attempt to claim that writers personally witnessed events and had perfect word-for-word memory of conversations.

As a person of seventy-six I am quite aware that I cannot describe in accurate detail events from thirty or sixty years ago and darn sure cannot recite word-for-word extended conversations. But then, I don't claim to be magic.

I could, however, write stories that made it sound as though I knew about or witnessed things (that I did not) from thirty or sixty years ago – and write detailed accounts of conversations. I might even hear about such things from folklore or oral tradition (“Uncle Joe did such and such and Aunt Mary said so and so�).

If Christian scholars and theologians do not know when gospels were written, do not know by whom they were written, do not know their sources of information HOW can anyone rationally claim that the stories are true and accurate accounts of events and conversations that really happened?
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Post #21

Post by Kapyong »

Gday JLB32168 and all,
JLB32168 wrote: Belief doesn’t require that John remembered everything – just those things said in the 1st person.
Pardon ?
G.John does NOT say ANYTHING in the 1st person, and never identifies himself.

Haven't you read it ?


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Post #22

Post by Kapyong »

Gday Zzyzx and all :)
Zzyzx wrote: Correction: The oldest surviving documents of the gospels are from CENTURIES later (Fourth Century).
Ah, no :)

The oldest (almost) complete BIBLES are no earlier than the fourth century - such as Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus. Here is picture of a modern facsimile of Vaticanus (B) :
Image

But actual manuscripts (MSS) of individual books are found much earlier - this table shows the dates of the important early MSS :
Image
(The symbol is a fancy script 'P' for papyrus.)

Note the famous P52 is shown at c.150, here is one side of it :
Image

Note there are several MSS around 200 - including P66, which has 39 folios containing much of G.John :
Image

A little later is P75, which contains much of G.Luke, here is picture showing the end of G.Luke and the start of G.John. If can read a little Greek, you can see the end and start titles here :
Image

The Greek NT that we have today goes back to maybe 200 CE or so.

Over a century after the Gospels were (probably) written.


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Post #23

Post by Kapyong »

Gday JLB32168 and all,
JLB32168 wrote: The Oldest surviving document is a fragment of St. John’s Gospel from the 1st Century and are Chapter 18:31–33, and the back (verso) contains parts of seven lines from verses 37–38 and our modern manuscripts match.
Not so.
P52 is from second century, maybe even early THIRD century.
Not 1st century.

It mostly matches, except :
" There appears insufficient room for the repeated phrase (ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΤΟ) in the second line of the verso, and it is suggested that these words were inadvertently dropped through haplography. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_L ... apyrus_P52


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Post #24

Post by Kapyong »

Gday JLB32168 and all,
JLB32168 wrote: Can we assume that hearsay is inaccurate and full of falsehood?
We don't need to ASSUME at all - we can see it clearly in the evidence -


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the Lord's Prayer - supposedly directly taught by Jesus to the disciples. But we have DIFFERENT versions of the Lord's Prayer - the Gospels have differing versions, and the MSS have more different versions again. The Lord's Prayer is one of the most VARIANT items in the MSS - yet supposedly this came directly from Jesus to the disciples. This shows clearly that the alleged 'oral tradition' totally failed to record Jesus alleged words - even for the most important words possible.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the names of the apostles - we have various DIFFERENT lists.

The oral tradition FAILED to record the date or even YEAR of Jesus' birth - leaving us with two contradictory accounts ten years apart.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record correctly who Cephas and Peter were - early Christians thought Cephas and Peter were different people, but later there were considered the SAME person.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the (alleged) words of God himself at the baptism - early Christians quote 'this is my son, this day have I begotten thee', but later it becomes 'this is my son, in thee I am well pleased' (because of arguments over dogma.)

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the alleged last words of Jesus on the cross - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the genealogy of Jesus - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record what happened on that first Easter morning - as Dan Barker's Easter Challenge has shown clearly - the Gospels have completely different stories.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the birth stories - the Gospels tell totally different stories.


On the evidence of Christian writings, oral tradition conspicuously failed. By the time these stories were committed to writing, there were already many widely different versions.


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Post #25

Post by JLB32168 »

rikuoamero wrote:You're making it worse on yourself, JLB.
Your concern is appreciated; however, worry less about how I look in other people’s eyes. I couldn’t possibly care less w/o being comatose or dead – something I’ve said before on multiple occasions. First of all, I’ve already proved that in non-literate societies that wo/men have memories that can do astounding things. Ray Bradbury made it a point to make mention of people who memorized entire books, which was drawn from reality, in Fahrenheit 451.
Secondly, one only needs to accept that John wrote things and/or passed them down to men around them who then committed those oral traditions to paper. And of course, for one who believes in divine inspiration recall in 100% accuracy and precision is quite reasonable.
Yeah – I know. You’re atheist and such things are rubbish for the dust bin.
rikuoamero wrote:This does NOT mean that the missing chapters and verses of that document automatically match our modern manuscripts for the rest of John. How can you tell? We don't have them.
One can infer that if insignificant verses are copied with 100% accuracy and precision that the same care would have been taken to the other significant parts of it. Of course, I concede that there might be discrepancies that I regard as negligible, but it is unreasonable to conclude that zealous care was taken with insignificant verses but major points were butchered.

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Post #26

Post by JLB32168 »

Kapyong wrote: The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the Lord's Prayer - supposedly directly taught by Jesus to the disciples.
The Lord’s Prayer is mentioned in two Gospels w/insignificant variations. That hardly indicates failure.
Kapyong wrote:The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the names of the apostles - we have various DIFFERENT lists.
And yet, the lists comport with one another more often than they don’t. Again, you seem to have a novel definition for “to fail.�
Kapyong wrote:On the evidence of Christian writings, oral tradition conspicuously failed. By the time these stories were committed to writing, there were already many widely different versions.
“Wildly Different� – we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

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Post #27

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 25 by JLB32168]
And of course, for one who believes in divine inspiration recall in 100% accuracy and precision is quite reasonable.
Uhh...JLB, did you forget who you're talking to here? I and several others on this thread do NOT believe that divine inspiration has occurred.
First of all, I’ve already proved that in non-literate societies that wo/men have memories that can do astounding things.
Yes, it is plausible that some people have amazing powers of recall.
This does not translate though that the gospel authors had these powers of recall. This has to be proven, and as Kapyong in the comment just before yours demonstrates, there are various contradictions between the gospels. At most, only one gospel author 'got it right', and we have no way of deciding which one. It is also possible that all of them got it wrong.
Yeah – I know. You’re atheist and such things are rubbish for the dust bin.
Yes. In order for me to believe that Jesus resurrected, I would have to believe the Gospel rumours (to borrow DI's phrasing). In order for me to believe the Gospel rumours, I have to believe the authors had amazing powers of recall, even decades after the alleged events. And, here's the kicker, in order to believe that these various men had amazing powers of recall, I would have to believe there was a god who helped with that, according to you.
In other words, I need to believe in God...in order to believe in God.
One can infer that if insignificant verses are copied with 100% accuracy and precision that the same care would have been taken to the other significant parts of it.
This would just be an assumption on your part though. Me? I prefer to be neutral, and say it is unproven.
Of course, I concede that there might be discrepancies that I regard as negligible,
Oh that you regard as negligible?
but it is unreasonable to conclude that zealous care was taken with insignificant verses but major points were butchered.
I have not concluded that major points were butchered. I am saying that the earliest fragment we have agrees with only a portion of our modern copies of John. We cannot say that the missing pieces do agree or not agree. The claim, either way, is unproven.
You are leaning towards the 'do agree' side with no manuscripts to justify the claim.
And yet, the lists comport with one another more often than they don’t. Again, you seem to have a novel definition for “to fail.�
JLB, remember the point earlier you were arguing? That the gospel authors had amazing powers of memory, such that they remembered everything 100%? That God himself was aiding with this?
Why then, the discrepancies? There shouldn't BE ANY! If there is even one discrepancy, then at least one Gospel author got something wrong, and as such, his memory is not 100% trustworthy, as you claimed.
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Post #28

Post by JLB32168 »

rikuoamero wrote:Uhh...JLB, did you forget who you're talking to here? I and several others on this thread do NOT believe that divine inspiration has occurred.
Okay. What is that supposed to mean to me?
rikuoamero wrote:Yes, it is plausible that some people have amazing powers of recall.
It’s not just plausible; it’s fact; therefore, it is plausible that the men who compiled the Gospels possessed this ability or got their information from people who possessed the ability. Now, do I have to prove that they did – no, because I’m only asserting the possibility. I assert what I can prove.
rikuoamero wrote:This would just be an assumption on your part though.
Yup
rikuoamero wrote:Oh that you regard as negligible?
Yup. One cannot prove something is negligible or significant. Both are subjective.
rikuoamero wrote:We cannot say that the missing pieces do agree or not agree. The claim, either way, is unproven.
Is it reasonable to conclude that men would be exact in copying insignificant stuff but sloppy when copying significant stuff?
rikuoamero wrote:JLB, remember the point earlier you were arguing? That the gospel authors had amazing powers of memory, such that they remembered everything 100%?
Yes – I believe that the autographs were just fine. Subsequent copies might have issues; although, I those issues are negligible in my estimation. No – I don’t think that God “authored� the Gospels. I think he inspired them to be written (not that he turned the writers into divine Dictaphones.)

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Post #29

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 28 by JLB32168]
Okay. What is that supposed to mean to me?

Since this is something that (you assert) theistic believers believe, and not non-believers, then I simply don't believe it [that the Gospel authors remembered 100% with divine assistance]. Since I don't believe it, well, any authority the Gospel authors may have had vanishes in a puff of logic.
According to the absurd circular logic you laid out, I would have to believe in God first in order to believe the Gospel authors had divine assistance with their memories.
It’s not just plausible; it’s fact; therefore, it is plausible that the men who compiled the Gospels possessed this ability or got their information from people who possessed the ability. Now, do I have to prove that they did – no, because I’m only asserting the possibility. I assert what I can prove.
Since you will not and cannot prove that the Gospel authors had amazing powers of recall, then your claim is just that - a claim, unfounded and unjustified. I am at full liberty to dismiss it.
Is it reasonable to conclude that men would be exact in copying insignificant stuff but sloppy when copying significant stuff?
Reasonable yes...but me, I prefer to wait for the evidence first before making any declarations.
Yes – I believe that the autographs were just fine
By autographs, do you mean the original manuscripts that the Gospel authors personally wrote on? How do you know that the originals had no discrepancies between them? Is this just your personal belief that you will not and/or cannot show to be true?
No – I don’t think that God “authored� the Gospels.
No-one on this thread mentioned that. Why are you rebutting a charge no-one has made to you?
Either way, the facts of the case are that the gospels that we do have contradict each other in various places. Thus at least one of the people whom you claim to have had 100% memory recall got something wrong; thus the claim of 100% memory recall is defeated.
I think he inspired them to be written
So an all knowing God was involved in some way with the writing of the gospels...and did nothing to prevent errors and contradictions from creeping in?
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Post #30

Post by JLB32168 »

rikuoamero wrote:Since I don't believe it, well, any authority the Gospel authors may have had vanishes in a puff of logic.
Okay.
rikuoamero wrote:According to the absurd circular logic you laid out, I would have to believe in God first in order to believe the Gospel authors had divine assistance with their memories.
I’m not sure why you’re using the word “circular logic.� It seems quite logical (not absurd) to conclude that for one to accept that Gospel authors have divine assistance with their memory, s/he would have to accept that something divine exists.
rikuoamero wrote:Since you will not and cannot prove that the Gospel authors had amazing powers of recall, then your claim is just that - a claim, unfounded and unjustified. I am at full liberty to dismiss it.
We have to die, Dude. That’s the only thing we have to do. You asked a question. I gave an answer. Nowhere in that was any demand that you accept the answer was definitive truth.
rikuoamero wrote:[It’s] Reasonable yes [to conclude that men would be exact in copying insignificant stuff but sloppy when copying significant stuff]...but me, I prefer to wait for the evidence first before making any declarations.
Okay.
rikuoamero wrote:By autographs, do you mean the original manuscripts that the Gospel authors personally wrote on? How do you know that the originals had no discrepancies between them?
I don’t. Is there a reason I should – other than it’s a possibility?
rikuoamero wrote:No-one on this thread mentioned that. Why are you rebutting a charge no-one has made to you?
I’m just clarifying what I mean by something being divinely inspired. That’s all. No harm no foul.
rikuoamero wrote:Either way, the facts of the case are that the gospels that we do have contradict each other in various places.
Well, I think that the use of the word “contradict� is exaggeration. I think “discrepancy� is more appropriate.
rikuoamero wrote:So an all knowing God was involved in some way with the writing of the gospels...and did nothing to prevent errors and contradictions from creeping in?
Does the number of angels at the tomb and how they’re different overthrow anything?

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