Hell

[Grayson]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

[SeekingTheTruth]

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

-You have it somewhat wrong. We have the ability to belief or disbelief in G-d. This is our freedom of choice. We have the right to choose to do good or evil. Every situation that you have the oppurtunity to do good or evil is a test. If you don't have the ability within you to pass the test
(i.e. stealing when the oppurtunity arises) then the test will not be presented to you. Because of this you can be judged on your actions. Reward for your good deeds and punishment for your sins.
-We are in this world for one reason. To do what we can that we will be accepted into heaven.
Don't be fooled. This world is far more greater then the mere physical.
If this seems far-fetched, there are many stories in the Jewish religion in the Talmud and about Great Rabbis and Kabbalistic Rabbies that deal with the spiritual.
I'll share with you a quick story to explain the heaven and hell part.
-There was a Great Rabbi that the whole community respected. All he had to do was ask for money, since he is engaged in Torah study most of the time, and people from the community would happily give.
One day a man came to this Rabbi's house and discovered that their wasn't a piece of furniture in the Rabbi's house. He asked the Rabbi ''where is your furniture''?, knowing very well that people are more than willing to give him the money needed for furniture and other necessities. But the Rabbi replied ''Where is your funiture?'' the man replied that he was just passing through. And the Rabbi replied '' So am I''.
-I hope this will help you realize the purpose in life. Many people believe that they can change the world but only G-d controls the world. If you think you can discover a cure for aids but G-d doesn't want a cure for aids in the world, you WILL NOW find a cure for aids. All you have control over is if you choose to do good deeds or to commit sins. Thats what you shoud focus on.

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[The Persnickety Platypus]

I am moving this thread to the Christianity subforum, where it may be better suited.

-You have it somewhat wrong. We have the ability to belief or disbelief in G-d. This is our freedom of choice. We have the right to choose to do good or evil. Every situation that you have the oppurtunity to do good or evil is a test. If you don't have the ability within you to pass the test
(i.e. stealing when the oppurtunity arises) then the test will not be presented to you. Because of this you can be judged on your actions. Reward for your good deeds and punishment for your sins.

Science and psychology have shown us that certain persons are more apt to disregard the material and look to a religious faith when faced with the unknown. There is even talk of a specific anatomical gene in each human which specifically determines one's level of spirituality.

Of course, we don't need genetic physicists to tell us that some people are predisposed towards the immaterial. It is quite observable by the untrained eye.

I was raised in a church-going family. When I reached the age where I was able to think for myself, I started to become skeptical of the existance of this father figure in the sky watching over me. For years I willed myself to believe, my level of faith constantly fluctuating. Eventually however, I had to give in to my true pertinence- science, and all that which can be proven.

Many people are mentally inable of believing in something that they have never seen, heard, touched, or sensed.

In this way, it appears that God (if he indeed exists) DOES personally instill each individual with the faith needed to be saved. He created us all as we are, and is directly responsible for any mental predispositions we possess.

If I go to hell, who's fault can it be other than God's?

[SeekingTheTruth]

Science and psychology have shown us that certain persons are more apt to disregard the material and look to a religious faith when faced with the unknown. There is even talk of a specific anatomical gene in each human which specifically determines one's level of spirituality.

How can you apply science, something that explains the physical, to something spiritual. C'mon thats ridiculous, it just doesn't make sense. And I am sure you have to agree.

-About when you reached the age of thinking for yourself, of course you rejected religion because you were raised Christian (no offense)
Since The NT is not the word of G-d you weren't able to get the solid proofs that I got with Judaism. If you really cared, you can find the truth. Look into Judaism and see for yourslef. You''ll will here numerous prophecies from the Torah, everything came true. If there is even one mistake in the Torah Judaism is done . You can ask any Rabbi this. People look for mistakes. For false prophecies and things of that nature. But it was never found. It will never be found.
If you want to see for yourself i recommend you attend a Discovery Seminar. You can find out all about that at www.Aish.com .
It talks about all religions and brings proofs and contradictions so you have a clear understanding of everything. And by the days end there is no denying that there is a G-d and that Judaism is the religion that he made. Non-Jews do not have to convert though, all they have to do is obey The Noahide Laws.
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[Bro Dave]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

The more important question may be, what purpose would hell serve? Infinite punishment for anything finite mortal could do, is unworthy of an infinitely loving God. So, what's the point of having a "hell"? It can't be to reform, since it is an "eternal damnation". It can't be some sick pleasure watching eternal suffering, so what purpose is being served?

Clearly there would be no justification, other than the generation of fear. Does that sound like something created my God or by man? Who would benefit from such fear? Obviously those religious organizations here on Earth, seeking to maintain disipline and power.

Anyone who claims to love God, and yet is willing to believe He would have the need to create a "hell", needs to rethink it all again.

Bro Dave

[joer]

I had a post to a similar question on this forum. Here's the link in case you're interested. It's a good question.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 4528#54528

I'll post part of my post here for convenience.

I think the views expressed must have been stated and debated in they're changing forms for centeries all the way to the present.

I understand Juliod's multiple mentions of “Everlasting Fire".

Just look how the Bible warns of the eternity and permance of hell!

He also says, see Matt 25. (I assume Matt. 25:31-46)

My preception of these ideas evolves with accruement of knowledge and entertainment of varying ideas over time.
Sin - to me is making a mistake or missing the mark, like in old Anglo times when a arrow "sinned", it missed the mark. So basically when your doing something "wrong" instead of "right". But "wrong is basically "missing the mark".
Now when we do something wrong we "suffer" the consequences of that wrong doing.
So Hell- to me is "suffering the consequences" of our "wrong" doing. It's really kind of a natural occurrence. It's not imposed on us by GOD but is a result of our "free will" choice. God doesn't make us choose wrongly, we do it on our own.Now some of us constantly and consistently choose to do the "wrong" thing. Maybe some of you can conceive of such a person. Maybe a hardened criminal, repetitive murderer, some person who shows no remorse and has no intention of ever changing. This might be a person who would "suffer" the consequences of their actions as long as they're alive. And if they lived eternally it might be referred to as an "Eternal Hell".

Joe Blackbird – reminds me of Hades and other old concepts of God & Hell.
It has become apparent to me that many arguments are based on old concepts of God, Hell or other Concepts that have been evolving over time. Some where along the line I became aware of the concept that GOD reveals God's self to human kind in a form that they can comprehend at that stage of their human development. So if GOD needs to be seen as a Burning Bush he's seen that way, or if GOD needs to be seen as the creator of an infinitely complex universe with multitudes of galaxies with all the complexities of Space, extremely small particles like quarks, varieties of energy sources, a DNA strand that contains 1 x 10 to the 605th power possibilities of a human individual in less than 5% of it's genetic code, than God will be seen in the most complete way we are able to see and comprehend GOD.

And Hell evolves from "Hades" to us "suffering" consequences from our own mistakes.

Nyril says our Sin debt has been paid. I don't have a good answer for that except, if we think of living backward and missing the mark of living a good life as "Sin Debt" Then the teachings of Jesus of how to live right even unto showing Mercy (by not judging us) as we killed him in our backward ways so that future generation would understand how to live right, you might say the living of His life as an example to us was our "Ransom" from our "Sin Debt".

Which brings us to DrProctopus who rightly says"
I think Christians need to put more consideration towards the idea of mercy and kindness. So true! We all can put more consideration towards the ideas of mercy and kindness.

I like McCulloch- ideas best.

For the benefit of any cognitively impaired deities, here is a partial list:
1. Annihilation - those beings who live out their lives without gaining redemption shall cease to exist.
2. Universal redemption - Love them anyway. Just as I am. Redeem your divine sacrifice even for those who have rejected it. Why not?
3. Reincarnation - give them another chance to get it right.

So Scropia- eternal suffering is of our own choosing IMHO. God be with you and may the Holy Spirit continue to guide you in the Paths of GOD.

[SeekingTheTruth]

Hell's only purope is to purify your soul. Sort of like a carwash for your soul.
Most people even Great people usually go to Hell for a short period. It purifies you so you can enter Heaven which is absolutely pure.

[McCulloch]

Hell's only purope is to purify your soul. Sort of like a carwash for your soul.
Most people even Great people usually go to Hell for a short period. It purifies you so you can enter Heaven which is absolutely pure.

Certainly this point of view is more comforting than the traditional Christian dogma regarding Hell. Would you care to provide some evidence that this is the correct teaching?

[SeekingTheTruth]

Would you care to provide some evidence that this is the correct teaching?

I heard this from my Rabbi. Today is the Sabbath and can't find out. Sorry.

I am hoping however, Monday I can get back to you.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

How can you apply science, something that explains the physical, to something spiritual.

Science (The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena) can be applied to anything. Spirituality is an observable phenomena, and obviously comes in different forms varying from person to person.

Let's say that two people completely ignorant of theology are given all the logical evidence from both sides of the God argument. It is very likely that one person will accept the idea of God, while the other passes it off as bunk.

Two different perspectives- one more inclined to the material, the other to the unseen.

Obviously God has not given everyone an equal chance at salvation. Why did he not make me more spiritual?

-About when you reached the age of thinking for yourself, of course you rejected religion because you were raised Christian (no offense)
Since The NT is not the word of G-d you weren't able to get the solid proofs that I got with Judaism. If you really cared, you can find the truth. Look into Judaism and see for yourslef.

No, sorry. I have read the Old Testament/Torah NUMEROUS times, and personally find it to be amoung the single most rediculous documents ever devised. In fact, the majority of my issues with Christianity stemmed from the OT (Such as how this so called "all loving" God in the NT formerly condoned blatant sexism and the murder of innocent children in the old law).

People look for mistakes. For false prophecies and things of that nature. But it was never found. It will never be found.

That's funny. I have found quite a few obvious contradictions.

Because I don't feel like typing them all up, here is a cursory list:
http://www.innvista.com/culture/religio ... ntraot.htm

The most obvious ones involve Chronicles, where God can't seem to decide just what happened in years past...

2 Sam 24:13
When Gad came to David, he told David this and asked, "Should seven years of famine come to you and your land, or three months during which you flee from your enemies as they pursue you, or should there be a three-day plague in your land? Think it over, and decide what answer I should give the one who sent me."

1Ch 21:11
When Gad came to David, he said, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your pick: either three years of famine...

So, how many years of famine?



2Ki 24:8
Jehoiakin was 18 years old when he began to rule as king.

2Ch 36:9
Jehoiakin was eight years old when he began to rule as king.

How old was Jehoiakin when he began to rule?




The Bible never gives a straight answer. All it creates is more questions.