The Bible is not the word of God

[DrProctopus]

A bunch of people who believed that God was talking to them wrote down what they believed God was saying.

The more relevant or successful scriptures were kept and eventually composed into the OT.

Something similar happend after Jesus did his thing, and the NT was produced.


Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[SeekingTheTruth]

You do not want to deny it, that is all. The same processes work on other books. Have you read any of the skeptic sites that genuinely sit down and debunk Bible codes?

I don't want to deny it?
I'm Jewish. There are many anti-semetics who tried and is trying to destroy us. We are hated. And on top of all that it's restricting. I can't eat Mcdonalds. Imagine a kid growing up hearing that his friends are going to Mcdonalds and love it and this and that and ham and pork and pepperoni pizza and all that. But i can't eat it. You don't think i would look into it and find a fault to justify myself to reject the religion. Iv'e tried to and I've failed. Not only me but thousands of Jews try to and they can't find a fault.
So all anybody has to do is find ONE fault and thats the end of the religion.
So don't say I dont want to deny it.
-The website you brought me to doesn't do anything. The first thing you see is Jesus. We don't believe Jesus was a prophet. He was a rabbi and knew the secrets of the Torah and the world so he was able to perform miracles, just like many rabbis and kabbalistic rabbis. It doesn't give him the right to change the religion around. And I don't think that he wanted to start a new religion. It was his followers after his death to claim that he was a prophet and the changes and NT and all that. I don't know why you take their word for it.
-So that website doesn't cut it. Because it doesn't prove that the Torah codes aren't true, but even if he did, that doesn't disclaim the Torah because it doesn't say anywhere that there are codes in the Torah.

[SeekingTheTruth]

JOER SAID:

The NT had me convinced of Jesus' teachings at 13 or 14. and I haven't left since. But I have revisited the OT and found that all of Jesus' teachings were taught repeatedly in the OT. Unfortunately most of the teachers were killed because people didn't like being told what they were doing was wrong.

You believe that the NT and its ways overrides the OT?
They why didn't G-d who gave the OT to the Jews that it was to be for all their days and that you cant ad nor subtract from it ( which then the NT shouldn't even exist). And why wouldn't the G-d let the Jews know thats He decided to change the right religions.
-Are you trying to say the whoever abides by the Torah and only the Torah is not practicing the religion correctly.
-Why would you take the apostles word over G-d's? It doesn't make sense to me.

[SeekingTheTruth]

I don't understand how this is a prophecy unless there was a date and a number. Perhaps the person who wrote this statement realized that, compared to some other groups, there were not many Jews at that time, and the author just assumed that ratio would continue. That does not require any special knowledge. It's also possible that statement will not be false at some future date. At this point, without a date and a number, it is meaningless. Then there's the question about what is "many in number". 14 million would probably be "many" to the original author. A real prophecy is simple. It has to have specific detail. Otherwise you have a statement that is too general and open to creative interpretation. All Bible and Koran prophecies I've seen have these same deficiencies.

There are well over 1 Billion Christians. There are well over 1 billlion Muslims. Both of them claiming to be the true religion. That in itself means that at least 1 Billion people are following the wrong religion.
And comepared to the 1 billion+ Christians and 1 Billion+ muslims, 14 million is mighty small in number.

[SeekingTheTruth]

This should be able to answer everything about Torah codes.

http://www.aish.com/seminars/discovery/Codes/codes.htm

http://www.aish.com/seminars/discovery/ ... ritics.htm

[SeekingTheTruth]

For the people who doesn't believe in G-d.

If you were walking in a desert and you found a watch. Would you assume that someone made it and brought it there or it "created itself".?
If, for a watch the obvious answer is that someone made it, then, How in the world can you think for one second that the world with all its wonders and all its complexities or something like the human brain was not created by a Creator a G-d?

[McCulloch]

For the people who doesn't believe in G-d.

If you were walking in a desert and you found a watch. Would you assume that someone made it and brought it there or it "created itself".?
If, for a watch the obvious answer is that someone made it, then, How in the world can you think for one second that the world with all its wonders and all its complexities or something like the human brain was not created by a Creator a G-d?

While this question is important and has been asked before and will undoubtedly be asked again, it is not on topic in this thread. If you wish to discuss the existence of God, please start a thread for that or join in one of the already ongoing ones.

[SeekingTheTruth]

But, if you want to believe it is true, then you will interpret events to match your belief.

As you can see from my other post is that I never wanted to believe it. Infact the opposite was true. I always tried to disprove it. Jewish schools and Synogagues encourage children and adults to ask any question that they might feel doesn't make sense.

Tell me this, how old do you believe this universe is?

What do you want to hear, that the Jews calanders counts the world at 5766 years but scientists claim that the world is infact billions of years old.
I have many answers. Pay attention.

1- What is one day? We count it from sunrise to sunrise, 24 hours, but the sus was created on the 3rd day. How long was a day during the times of creation?
2- When you are first born, that first year you double in age. You age the most. When you are five, one year is one fifth of your life, thats a big chunk and you age a lot. When you are twenty a year is now a twentieth of yout life you age less. When you are 70 years old, each year you age very very little. So to the world.
3- Also another thing is this. Time in space and time on Earth is a lot different. Scientist know how old the earth is by studying the cosmos. I'm no scientist but they reached the number 15 and a half billion. By taking that number and doing this mathematical formula, something like the procedure in number 2, it equals amazingly 5766 years old I think Earth wise.
I know I can't explain it too well so I'll give you the place where you can hear this phenomenon by the Head of Cosmology at MIT, basically the head of the world in Comology. IF you truly care about this issue, take the time and listen to the audio lesson, it will blow you away.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/audio/index.htm
go to the left column where it says Genesis and The Big Bang .Click on that, Listen and Learn. It seems that this is perfect for you.

Please let me know what you thought about it, and if you are interested check out more stuff on that site. It gives you an insight into Judaism and teaches things you'd never know from other religions.

[McCulloch]

You believe that the NT and its ways overrides the OT?
They why didn't G-d who gave the OT to the Jews that it was to be for all their days and that you cant ad nor subtract from it ( which then the NT shouldn't even exist). And why wouldn't the G-d let the Jews know thats He decided to change the right religions.
-Are you trying to say the whoever abides by the Torah and only the Torah is not practicing the religion correctly.
-Why would you take the apostles word over G-d's? It doesn't make sense to me.

Why would the Creator of the Universe reveal Himself and His will to just a small (relatively) ethnic group? Did He not create all of humanity according to your own scriptures?
I think that this is the key to the popularity of Christianity and Islam over Judaism. Christianity and Islam both have moved on beyond the idea of a tribal God to a universal God. The fact that both of the larger monotheistic religions identify their universal God with the God of the chosen people it theologically problematic.

[McCulloch]

Tell me this, how old do you believe this universe is?

What do you want to hear, that the Jews calanders counts the world at 5766 years but scientists claim that the world is in fact billions of years old.
I have many answers. Pay attention.

1- What is one day? We count it from sunrise to sunrise, 24 hours, but the sun was created on the 3rd day. How long was a day during the times of creation?

And your point is? I could conclude from this that the Genesis account is obviously mythic and not literal. I could also conclude that the Genesis account is self-contradictory since without the sun, the concept of a 'day' is meaningless. However, I am interested in what you conclude from this. You seem to have left out your conclusions.

2- When you are first born, that first year you double in age. You age the most. When you are five, one year is one fifth of your life, thats a big chunk and you age a lot. When you are twenty a year is now a twentieth of yout life you age less. When you are 70 years old, each year you age very very little. So to[o] the world.

Are you applying this concept to the first three days of creation or to all time? Is time itself slowing down? Just what are we to get from this little mathematical analogy?

3- Also another thing is this. Time in space and time on Earth is a lot different. Scientist know how old the earth is by studying the cosmos. I'm no scientist but they reached the number 15 and a half billion. By taking that number and doing this mathematical formula, something like the procedure in number 2, it equals amazingly 5766 years old I think Earth wise.

Show me the math.

I know I can't explain it too well so I'll give you the place where you can hear this phenomenon by the Head of Cosmology at MIT, basically the head of the world in Comology. IF you truly care about this issue, take the time and listen to the audio lesson, it will blow you away.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/audio/index.htm
go to the left column where it says Genesis and The Big Bang .Click on that, Listen and Learn. It seems that this is perfect for you.

Please let me know what you thought about it, and if you are interested check out more stuff on that site. It gives you an insight into Judaism and teaches things you'd never know from other religions.

Firstly Dr. Schroeder is a physicist not a cosmologist and he is not the Head of Cosmology at MIT.

According to Dr. Schroeder, since the universe started in such a very tiny volume, the first twenty-four hour day was a time period of 8 billion years. As the universe continued to expand, the second day was only 4 billion years, the third day was 2 billion years, the fourth day was 1 billion years, the fifth day was 1/2 billion years and the sixth day was 1/4 billion years for a grand total of 15 3/4 billion years. He does not rest this choice of variable “day” lengths on any discernible scientific reasoning, nor does he offer any biblical basis for such a division. We are merely supposed to accept his re-definition of the word “day” and ignore all the biblical evidence (such as Genesis 1:5 and Exodus 20:8–11) that each creation day was essentially the same length of time as an ordinary day of the week today.

Moreover, Dr. Schroeder’s arbitrary numbers are not consistent with each other. He chooses to divide the 15 billion years by the degree of expansion of the universe, which he defines as a million million (1,000,000,000,000), and then multiplying that by 365 for the number of days in a year. He states that the answer is approximately 6, proving his theory. However, the actual answer is 5.475, meaning that we have not yet completed the sixth day. Therefore, according to his theory, animals and humans should not be around.

Dr. Schroeder continues by saying that because we are in the “sixth day” of creation, the Sabbath Day, the seventh day of rest, has not yet occurred. However, Genesis 2:1–2 clearly states that God “ended his work”, “he rested”, and “he blessed it and sanctified it because in it he rested.” All of these statements are made in the past tense. How could this be if we are still in the sixth day as Dr. Schroeder claims?

Dr. Schroeder also states that the basic Hebrew root word for “evening” is “chaos” and the basic Hebrew root word for “morning” is “order.” He cites no Hebrew scholar supporting his view, which appears to many scholars to be without foundation. The Hebrew word for “evening” is ('ereb); it appears to have no relation to the word most scholars would expect for “chaos” (tohu). Similarly, the word for “morning” (boqer) has no discernible connection to the word we would expect for “order” (seder). Since Dr. Schroeder offers no details supporting his alleged Hebrew word relationships, readers should not take him seriously on this point. (In any case, even if there were a root word relationship, there are logical fallacies and dangers involved in using word roots to interpret the Bible, which have led people astray on many issues. For a study of the Hebrew word tohu, see The alleged biblical evidence for a gap.)

Proceeding with this argument nonetheless, Dr. Schroeder asserts that this shows the universe started with the chaos of the big bang and was later ordered by God. Does this then mean that each “day” started with chaos and ended with order? Did things go through a six “day” cycle of chaos-to-order-to-chaos-to-order?

Edited to correct citation.

[SeekingTheTruth]

Thanks for your questions. We are on the right track.

Why would the Creator of the Universe reveal Himself and His will to just a small (relatively) ethnic group?[

You ever heard of free will. The freedom to choose to do good or do evil. The choice of believing in G-d or not. This is the only thing we control.
G-d controls everything else. G-d revealed Himself to the Jews because thats is the proof that there is a G-d for all generations.
If G-d reveals Himself to the world in every generation, Free choice is taken away because if you personally saw G-d or a miracle against nature, like the splitting of the Red Sea, you will believe in Him and obey His laws and commandments. Their would be no doubt in your mind.
We as the Jews have the obligation to show the world that there is a G-d and I guess we completed that because most of the world's religion is rooted from Judaism. Just the basic belief that there is one G-d who created the Universe and that he is everlasting and all-knowing.
Jews have to keep all the commandments in the Torah, 613 commandments. Non-Jews do not have to convert. There are the 7 Noahide Laws in our Torah that applies too all mankind. That is the
Non-Jews obligation and thats it. If you keep it and I keep the 613 commandments, then one day we'll chill in Heaven together.

Did He not create all of humanity according to your own scriptures?

I don't know what you mean by this, but if you think that we believe that Jews are better than Non-Jews, you are dead wrong. We are all equal, but we do have different obligations.

I think that this is the key to the popularity of Christianity and Islam over Judaism. Christianity and Islam both have moved on beyond the idea of a tribal God to a universal God. The fact that both of the larger monotheistic religions identify their universal God with the God of the chosen people it theologically problematic.

No this is not true. Our G-d is G-d to everyone. Islam and Christianity pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The only reason that they are more popular is because they in the past have forced religion on others. Crusaders for example. They promote conversion to their religion but Judaism does not. Like I said Non-Jews do not have to convert, all they have to do is follow the 7 Noahide laws. Also to convert to Judaism the process is very difficult and rabbies have to dissuade you because if the person converting finally converts but he/she doesn't keep the commandments of the Torah, the rabbies are to some degree held responsible. We as Jews know that are religion is very hard so we don't like taking the chance.