The Bible is not the word of God

[DrProctopus]

A bunch of people who believed that God was talking to them wrote down what they believed God was saying.

The more relevant or successful scriptures were kept and eventually composed into the OT.

Something similar happend after Jesus did his thing, and the NT was produced.


Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[Lotan]

I don't know from what sources your'e getting your translations from but,
take the Torah in Hebrew ( we all agree thats how it was presented to the world ) and translate it word for word.

Deuteronomy 14:8

''and the pig, for it has a split hoof, but not the cud-it is impure to you;from their flesh you shall not eat and you shall not touch their carcasses.''

That translation is fine with me. Now to repeat my request...

"Please show us where it says that "there is only one animal that has split hooves and doesn't chew it's cud". Take as long as you like."
While you're at it, it would be fun to see how you reconcile this verse with Genesis 9:3.

And also Deuteronomy 14:7 , Do you have a problem with that too?

There is some question as to whether hares can be considered to chew their 'cud' but otherwise there's nothing particularly interesting about that verse.

Also, I'm still waiting for a scripture reference for this mindboggling prophecy...

There are many prophecies in the Torah. One of them is that the Jewish nantion will never be many in munber.

Remember when you said.....?

I'm sorry but I don't remember off the top of my head where the verse is located. I did however aske my Rabbi and I will have the place for you on Monday......STAY TUNED.

[DrProctopus]

Bartok888 said:
"What you are really arguing for, it appears, is a theory of chaos where sometimes God's word is truth and sometimes it is not."

I am certainly not arguing this. I am saying that the Bible is not 100% the word of God. It might be 0% the word of God as well, I don't know, I am merely saying that the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy is insupportable.

But if you believe that man has personality because he came from a personal God, which explains the difference between man and non-man (since we were created in His image), then you recognize the chasm between us and God as we are finite and He is infinite in our roles as created vs. creator.

I take issue with the whole concept of a starting belief. Beliefs should be consistent with evidence.

Therefore, if God is who He says He is, then we can presume to rely on everything He says to be 100% dependable and that the full inspiration of the scriptures will not fail us, or steer us wrong.

But, that skips right over the question of whether or not the Bible is God's word. You are assuming it is God's word, and thus that you might rely upon it. I am challenging your starting assumption.

But moreover, have any rabbis ever actually restored sight to the blind, or made a full blown case of leprocy disappear, raise a man from the dead, actually walk on water, have demons recognize them in fear and flee at the mention of their name, or make a deaf mute hear and talk in an instant???

I believe you are assuming that the events described in the Bible actually happened. Perhaps they did, or perhaps they are lies, or myth. And none of this would prove that other aspects of the Bible must be true. It is quite possible to have both truth and falsehood within a single document.

But most of all, don't you think that the Roman leaders were livid when they heard the news of being "raised from the dead" and you had better believe they did EVERYTHING in their power which was formidable, to say the least, to discredit the apostles/ and/or find the body or even a portion of the remains to prove the story wrong?

Perhaps they never heard any such news. Perhaps this part is due to myth-making. Perhaps it is a lie, written in to the scriptures at a later date to make JC sound more supernatural.

Did Gautama Buddha really come to remember all of his past lives?
Was Mohammed really granted literacy through divine intervention?
Did Mithra really rise from the dead?

Religious founders often have miracles connected to them, even those that are disdainful of supernatural abilities such as Gautama Buddha and Mohammed. The fact that such legends are connected to these people does not in any way prove that those legends occurred.

Humans create myths.


But... If for the sake of discussion we imagine that Jesus really did perform such miracles, that still would not prove that the Bible is inerrant.

[McCulloch]

I have a few more minutes, so here's another one on the same concept.
Deuteronomy
6"Any animal that has split hooves and chews the cud may be eaten,
7 but if the animal doesn't have both, it may not be eaten. So you may not eat the camel, the hare, or the rock badger. They chew the cud but do not have split hooves.
Same proof as last post.

I'll be suprised if someone can even try to disprove this.

So would I. Only because it is rather unclear from what was written what you think this proves. What does this prove? Camels, hares and rock badgers do not have split hooves. No argument there. Camels chew their cud. No argument there. Rock badgers and hares eat their cud. I'll bet you will have to engage in wonderful apologetic sport of hermeneutic gymnastics in order to make your point here. Hares, rabbits and badgers do not chew their cud within the modern definition of hare and badger and the modern definition of cud. So at the very least, in order to preserve the inerrant prophetic nature of the Torah, you must admit that every translator of Deuteronomy has been mistaken.
How would this passage be used as prophesy? How could this passage be used to show that the book it was contained in is God's word? I am completely amazed that anyone would even try to assert such a thing.

[DrProctopus]

I am dissappointed...

The believers seem to be dropping out of this thread.

Are there any other believers in Biblical inerrancy that would like to take up their side of the argument?

Is there any compelling reason to believe the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[Cephus]

Is there any compelling reason to believe the Bible is 100% the word of God?

Is there any compelling reason to believe the Bible is anything more than a book of mythology? Besides wishful thinking, I mean.

[joer]

DrProctopus,

I am disappointed... The believers seem to be dropping out of this thread.
Are there any other believers in Biblical inerrancy that would like to take up their side of the argument?
Is there any compelling reason to believe the Bible is 100% the word of God?

Well you know Dr. Procto, what happens some times is people get tired of the same old rehash of concepts. What you’re trying propose seems more like a baiting technique to set up an argument with Fundamentalist type Christians. That can get kind of boring. Arguing literal interpretation of Biblical quotes. If you were willing to entertain a more profound understanding of what the Word of God consists of it may not make for such colorful arguments with quick jabs, sarcasm and innuendoes among other colorful characteristics in these threads. But it might make for a more profound understanding of what the Word of God is. And that would be a more profound dialectical living understanding of the truth of what the Word of God really is. And it could take some time as any worthy study of an idea would. But if you did try to make it a more profound attempt at understanding the concepts behind the arguments instead of just colorful argumentative styles, it may be an opportunity for intellectual growth on one side and spiritual growth on the other, making it valuable to all.

The Bible is often referred to as the Word of God. But seldom is that concept contemplated. What is the Word of God? The simple answer is “The Bible”. But unfortunately that would be untrue. The Word of God is much more than just “the Bible”. The Word of God has to do with an understanding of the concepts of
Inspiration,
Revelation,
Literary Genres in the Bible
The Parable
The Allegory
The Beast fable
The Short Story and Historical Novel
The Problem Story
The Speech as a Literary Device
Conditioned Thought Patterns
Sacred Writings vs. Inspired Writings
Poems in the Bible
The Prophets
Atonement Theory and Vicarious Suffering
Hebrew Philosophy
The Gospels
Apocalyptic Literature
How do you know what it is you are dealing with? Informed References.
Understanding the Situation
Your interaction with and understanding of the Bible forms the Word of God to you Today!
Jesus Christ – “The Word made Flesh” – “The Living Word of God”

As we develop our understanding of the Bible we enrich our understanding and active participation in Living the Word of God in our lives.

That’s what it’s all about Dr. Procto. You put your right foot in and you shake it all about.
You do the Hokie Pokie and you turn yourself around.
And that’s what it’s all about!

To many people try to Live off the words themselves, dictionary definitions and the like. But if you read it after you have a good understanding of the previous concepts it’s much more meaningful.

Now McCulloch’s favorite bible in the New American Bible as is mine. And all these ideas and more are in my edition. There’s a historical and literary analysis before each major division and book. So it brings you much more in touch with who actually wrote it and the literary and historical context and events occurring at the time of the writing. So it really improves the understanding and meaning of the writing. I’ve gotten a lot closer to God in my last 8 years of interaction with the Bible and spiritual ideas than my previous 30 years of experience. I’d say 70% of my growth has been in the last eight years and maybe 30% in my first 30.

Here’s a link to this preface of The new American Bible and a few brief excerpts.

Be Well ladies and gentleman. Increase your understanding and knowledge in your search for truth.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... um_en.html

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION DEI VERBUM

PREFACE
1. Hearing the word of God with reverence and proclaiming it with faith, the sacred synod takes its direction from these words of St. John: "We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:2-3). Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on, so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe, by believing it may hope, and by hoping it may love. (1)
CHAPTER I
REVELATION ITSELF
2. In His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation. (2)
3. God, who through the Word creates all things (see John 1:3) and keeps them in existence, gives men an enduring witness to Himself in created realities (see Rom. 1:19-20). Planning to make known the way of heavenly salvation, He went further and from the start manifested Himself to our first parents. Then after their fall His promise of redemption aroused in them the hope of being saved (see Gen. 3:15) and from that time on He ceaselessly kept the human race in His care, to give eternal life to those who perseveringly do good in search of salvation (see Rom. 2:6-7). Then, at the time He had appointed He called Abraham in order to make of him a great nation (see Gen. 12:2). Through the patriarchs, and after them through Moses and the prophets, He taught this people to acknowledge Himself the one living and true God, provident father and just judge, and to wait for the Savior promised by Him, and in this manner prepared the way for the Gospel down through the centuries.



24. Sacred theology rests on the written word of God, together with sacred tradition, as its primary and perpetual foundation. By scrutinizing in the light of faith all truth stored up in the mystery of Christ, theology is most powerfully strengthened and constantly rejuvenated by that word. For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and so the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology. (3) By the same word of Scripture the ministry of the word also, that is, pastoral preaching, catechetics and all Christian instruction, in which the liturgical homily must hold the foremost place, is nourished in a healthy way and flourishes in a holy way.
25. Therefore, all the clergy must hold fast to the Sacred Scriptures through diligent sacred reading and careful study, especially the priests of Christ and others, such as deacons and catechists who are legitimately active in the ministry of the word. This is to be done so that none of them will become "an empty preacher of the word of God outwardly, who is not a listener to it inwardly" (4) since they must share the abundant wealth of the divine word with the faithful committed to them, especially in the sacred liturgy. The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the "excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:8). "For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."(5) Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying." (6)

[QED]

But joer Doc Proc is asking "Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?" This is a very fair question as we can see all too easily how men could construct all this work under false pretenses.

The Bible is often referred to as the Word of God. But seldom is that concept contemplated. What is the Word of God? The simple answer is “The Bible”. But unfortunately that would be untrue. The Word of God is much more than just “the Bible”. The Word of God has to do with an understanding of the concepts of
Inspiration,
Revelation,
Literary Genres in the Bible
The Parable
The Allegory
The Beast fable
The Short Story and Historical Novel
The Problem Story
The Speech as a Literary Device
Conditioned Thought Patterns
Sacred Writings vs. Inspired Writings
Poems in the Bible
The Prophets
Atonement Theory and Vicarious Suffering
Hebrew Philosophy
The Gospels
Apocalyptic Literature
How do you know what it is you are dealing with? Informed References.
Understanding the Situation
Your interaction with and understanding of the Bible forms the Word of God to you Today!
Jesus Christ – “The Word made Flesh” – “The Living Word of God”

As we develop our understanding of the Bible we enrich our understanding and active participation in Living the Word of God in our lives.

Isn't this simply a list of things thought-up by mortal philosophers? You cordially invite everyone to "put your right foot in and you shake it all about. You do the Hokie Pokie and you turn yourself around.
And that’s what it’s all about!" ...isn't this an admission that it is a human activity which requires that we get into "the spirit of things"... something that comes from within rather than being a response to something external and corporeal?

I’ve gotten a lot closer to God in my last 8 years of interaction with the Bible and spiritual ideas than my previous 30 years of experience. I’d say 70% of my growth has been in the last eight years and maybe 30% in my first 30.

Of course all the effort put into the synthesis may have been worth it for you and others like you. But it still doesn't tell us whether or not it is the product of earthly wisdom or something coming from some ultimate authority. If I scan the words you quote I see nothing compelling in support of the latter...

understanding
knowledge
search for truth.
word of God with reverence
proclaiming it with faith
What we have seen and heard we announce to you
set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation
and how it is handed on
so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe

And so on with the rhetoric.

Now there are some mighty impressive structures that have been put in place over the last few thousand years. Men have laboured hard to create a coherent and organized presence for the almighty here on Earth. Living as I do not far from the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey I have often stood in awe and admiration for the inspiration of men in the past. But every work, be it painting, hymn or entire cathedral is crafted by men to a plan proposed by men. There is something inevitable about all this, something that is bound to occur to sentient beings like us if we ponder extremes.

We observe that all societies have their leaders and rulers, so we imagine some ultimate ruler. All purposeful human artifacts have a maker so we imagine that there is some ultimate creator... and so on. But all these Anthropocentric considerations are dubious if we argue, by analogy, in this way. This is a fallibility of thinking that has managed to persist for thousands of years despite the fact that, from the very start, Greek philosophers were all too aware of the logical pitfalls. Surely, in the end, theologians ougth to admit that it is pretty much a hunch that everyone is going on here.

[joer]

QED I’m flattered and pleased to have a response from you. You present your positions so eloquently, well informed and they are enjoyably readable with the appearance of being well thought out. Of course everything you say is “true” in the context of your post. BUT (ah there it is the introduction to the contradiction, the shadow of doubt.) It would be so wonderful to have you explain Faith and Belief that is a fact of so many people’s lives. Faith and belief in that which is as of yet unprovable. People with that faith would enjoy how beautifully you pose your logic and how well substantiated it is in thought. But what about faith and belief in that which is only postulated?

QED said:

You cordially invite everyone to "put your right foot in and you shake it all about. You do the Hokie Pokie and you turn yourself around.
And that’s what it’s all about!"
...isn't this an admission that it is a human activity which requires that we get into "the spirit of things"... something that comes from within rather than being a response to something external and corporeal?

No actually it’s an insertion of the words of a fun little tune that may be commonly known that came to me by word association when I wrote the phrase “That’s what it’s all about”. I then inserted it to lighten things up and encourage participation. I’m glad it or at least something in this post attracted you to participate. I have enjoyed very much reading your posts on other threads, but I haven’t felt comfortable with engaging you in any of those posts. I do feel comfortable here. Even if it’s a rehash of faith, belief and hope vs. logic and ascertainment of proof of the Almighty or the Almighty’s Anything (Love, Plan, Direction) that has to do with us.

Now there’s nothing from our perspective, as human beings, of the Almighty that wouldn’t be influenced or affected by us. So we can postulate that God exists without us, but in reality however we perceive, conceive or as you put it “imagine” that God exists could not exist with out us. So in a more or less intricate way, what God “really is” is intrinsically tied to us. So in a very real way imagined or otherwise as far as we (human kind) are concerned God would not exist without us. So if we accept the concept that we believers are part of God either real or imagined. Then we (All of us) can move on and investigate weather our relationship or lack thereof with God is real or imagined.

Would you care to take that step with me QED? Or would you purpose something else as a starting point?

Based on your response, I mean really if you want to consider if the Bible is 100% the word of God, wouldn’t you first want to establish the existence or non-existence of God? Because if God doesn’t exist "The Bible" would be 0% the word of God. And If God did exist then you could attempt to determine what is of Man and what is of and what is of the devil or any other ramification that could be expressed as a percentage.


God, (used here only as a manner of expression) I love your posts QED. Thank You!

[DrProctopus]

Based on your response, I mean really if you want to consider if the Bible is 100% the word of God, wouldn’t you first want to establish the existence or non-existence of God? Because if God doesn’t exist "The Bible" would be 0% the word of God. And If God did exist then you could attempt to determine what is of Man and what is of and what is of the devil or any other ramification that could be expressed as a percentage.

If god does not exist, then clearly the Bible is not God's word. Although the existence of God cannot be absolutely proven (nor can just about anything), I personally feel that the evidence weighs in favor of the idea that this reality was a product of intentional planning.

However, this says nothing about the Christian God, or the Bible.

The Bible is a collection of writings. It was not given in one complete form, but was only compiled from disparate writings 4 centuries later. (This is not entirely fair, as certain writings were central and commonly used, even though others were disputed.)

So, one of the following three options must be true:
1) None of the writings that were later compiled into the Bible are divinely inspired.
2) Some of the writings that were later compiled into the Bible are divinely inspired.
3) All of the writings that were later compiled into the Bible are divinely inspired.

Is there any evidence to support option 3 over options 1 or 2?

There must be something, as many people seem to believe option 3. I am asking if any believers can present the evidence for option 3, as it is worth debating. I believe the evidence and arguments in support of option 3 can be readily broken down, and most of them shown to either depend upon circular reasoning, or to be based upon the starting assumption that the Bible is true. Such a starting assumption would be invalid, but many apologetic arguments have been made with that assumption.

[QED]

joer, it's really quite easy to sit back and marvel at the world and the way it suits us. Everything seems perfectly matched to its apparent purpose and we can only stand in awe and amazement at the evident organization seen in nature. From the cycles of the skies and seasons to the providence of the land -- everything looks as though it might have been put there specially for us. And whosoever put it there must have been thinking of our needs and must also be mightily powerful to engineer everything in this way.

This is just about the only conclusion we can reasonably expect from people taking everything at face value in ages past and would be so obvious to them that it would surely inspire a great deal of faith and belief in that which cannot actually be seen. This is no doubt why so many different ideas about God(s) have occurred to men at various times. After all, Monotheism is not the only expression of faith in there being some higher powers that control the world and hence give sustenance to man.

So historically speaking faith is bound to be very strong but it is also very possibly misguided as well, for modern understanding of the capacity for the world to organize itself into the harmonious structures we see throws up numerous ambiguities. Critical thinkers will be quick to point out that any living thing that is adapted to an environment has two ways of viewing providence. One is the traditional view that nature has bent to the needs of the individual, but the evidence is now overwhelming that it is the other way around, with life adapting to whatever conditions are available .

Despite the fact that it might be argued that this is how the divine plan was actually implemented, it runs counter to what we are told in the "users guide to existence" that some call the holy bible, and as such I feel it cannot therefore be the word of God even if he does exist (which I very much doubt).