The Bible is not the word of God

[DrProctopus]

A bunch of people who believed that God was talking to them wrote down what they believed God was saying.

The more relevant or successful scriptures were kept and eventually composed into the OT.

Something similar happend after Jesus did his thing, and the NT was produced.


Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[Lotan]

My mind, I have to say, fails to boggle.

Too bad. Mine is thoroughly boggled........

[MrWhy]

Everything in the Torah works out. I've had numerous questions answered, so for me the Torah is true. I can't find a fault. There are many prophecies in the Torah. One of them is that the Jewish nantion will never be many in munber. Just that alone is a mindboggling prophecy.

I don't understand how this is a prophecy unless there was a date and a number. Perhaps the person who wrote this statement realized that, compared to some other groups, there were not many Jews at that time, and the author just assumed that ratio would continue. That does not require any special knowledge. It's also possible that statement will not be false at some future date. At this point, without a date and a number, it is meaningless. Then there's the question about what is "many in number". 14 million would probably be "many" to the original author. A real prophecy is simple. It has to have specific detail. Otherwise you have a statement that is too general and open to creative interpretation. All Bible and Koran prophecies I've seen have these same deficiencies.

If a ''Man" started this religion, he would most certainly not include something like that. Also, it drives mathemeticians crazy. A religion thats been around for over 3000 years but only have approx. 14 million people.

A "Man" did not start this religion. It was many men, over many years. And, why could an author not include that statement. It could have been just an unfounded opinion. Which mathematicians have been disturbed by this, and why is it significant? Is the religion hard to join? Do members no reproduce very well? Do they not attempt to spread the religion?

[Cathar1950]

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There are many skeptics and people who claim that it is not true. But don't take their word for it. See for yourself. Go to a presentation that uses the Torah and you will never have two thought about it again. Iv'e been to one and there is no denying it

Can you give us some examples?
Which books? Writing?

Both Abraham. The prophecy is true.

I think it was a promise, blessing or favoritism not a prophesy.

[joer]

Ryoga said:

so to answer the question "is the Bilbe the word of God"
the answer is: some of it is the word of God and alot of it is not.
and you can confirm that by simply reading it.

The NT says the Kingdom of God is in your heart. If this is so you would have discernment of what is from GOD and what Ryoga says would be true.

Nick where do you want me to put that mountain? LOL

Ryoga wrote:

first, what is "Bible".
"Bible" means "Book". and "holy bible" = "holy book"
if you search the Bilble you will not find the word "Bible" in it.
so, Who named it "Bible"?
the Bible is a mix of more than 2 books. (maybe 3 I'm not sure)

McCulluch wrote:

Actually it is a compilation of sixty-six separate writings (unless you include the Apocrypha). Thirty-nine of them are grouped by Christians together as the "Old Testament" and twenty-seven are grouped as the "New Testament". Although, they are called books of the Bible, many of the ones in the NT are epistles or letters.

Actually mine has 73 separate writings. forty-six of them are grouped by Catholics together as the "Old Testament" and twenty-seven are grouped as the "New Testament".

FYI. The OT in Catholic bibles include:

The Book of Tobit
The Book of Judith
The First Book of Maccabees
The Second Book of Maccabees
The Book of Wisdom
The Book of Sirach
The Book of Baruch

Joe Blaclkbird said:

Had they opted to NOT include 2 Timothy, we would probably not be debating this topic right now.

True
Seeking The Truth said:

I've had numerous questions answered, so for me the Torah is true.

That in plain and simple terms is the real value of the Bible to believers, regardless of how you cut it.


QED said:

Before we can come to this as a reasonable conclusion we have to show that a particular circle could not have been created by men -- particularly in the light of the fact that we know so many can.

Either that or catch an alien in the act.

Lotan said:

"Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever." Exodus 32:13

Amen LOL

QED says you have to ask if any of it (the bible) is the word of God.

I say even if only some of it is the word of GOD wouldn't it be worth knowing?

But that question is based on the assumption that there is a God. So it wouldn't be a pertinent question to many of the posters on this thread. Unless they accepted that assumption for purposes of argument. IMHO

I imagine 3 or 4 thousand years ago few would argue about what the word of GOD was. 2 thousand years ago Jesus the supposed authority on the Word of God even being referred to as the Word made Flesh indicated by his teachings what the Word of God was from the OT. He straighten us out on what was of God in the OT. And he didn't extoll the virtues of looting, raping and killing as being of GOD.

The NT had me convinced of Jesus' teachings at 13 or 14. and I haven't left since. But I have revisited the OT and found that all of Jesus' teachings were taught repeatedly in the OT. Unfortunately most of the teachers were killed because people didn't like being told what they were doing was wrong.

Here's part of a post from another thread that might be relevant.
Cheers my brothers and sisters of the THREAD.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=40
1John2_26 said:

We are told (by Jesus before editing) to look out for these kinds of (progressive) people that do not accept sound doctrine and the text (the authentic text) indicates that they are "evil and bad." So, where does it indicate that "Christian Progressives" can force the Bible to "evolve" and to do so is to discard Biblical truth for a new political correctness?

We weren’t told anything by Jesus before editing unless you talked to him personally. Every bible that’s ever been written had an editor. I did an electronic search on a few electronic bibles and the word “progressive” never came up. So I assume the bible doesn’t actually say what you suggest and that your interpreting other wording to mean what you say. I don’t have to force the bible to evolve it says it plain and clear in the parts that Jesus shed light upon as being important for us to grasp as God’s message to us through him. He let the chaff in the bible get winnowed out by his words and lessons. He told us

Lu:17:21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That’s why we don’t need to look any further than what’s in our heart guided by the Holy Spirit to determine what is of the Kingdom and what is not.

If I used your way of reasoning and deduction, I could say, “We are told by Jesus (before interpreting) Athiests are Blessed.” And to support my claim I could use The Beatudes:
M't:5:4: Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
M't:5:6: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
M't:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.And say, “Atheists are all these things so they are Blessed.” Actually the ones I know are like that, and even though they don’t think of themselves as blessed, I do.

So why don’t we get back to the meaningful things In Matthew Jesus told us: (edited of course, by King James Version editors here)
M't:22:36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? M't:22:37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. M't:22:38: This is the first and great commandment. M't:22:39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. M't:22:40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So everything Hangs on those to things. To do God’s Will you only have to measure what your doing to those two tests. If you look at the ten commandments the first 3 honor God, the last 7 relate to loving your neighbor the way God wants you to.
Now God has told us these things over and over again for thousands of years. And we just about killed the messenger almost every time and reverted back to our sick ways. Even today Atheists who don’t even believe in God follow his will and commandments better than many Christians just based on their secular moral standards.

[DrProctopus]

1John2_26 said:

Denial only goes so far.

DrProtopus could be a computer program setup by infidels.org to regurgitate their incessant sound bite skepticism.

How do I know I had great grand parents as I have never seen them nor, since I am a product of supposed immigrants (that could be a lie too) never will?

The deny parade gets old after awhile. Even Satan knows that.

1) Who do you imagine is in denial?
2) I am a deist, and so hardly qualify as a typical skeptic
3) Determining what we believe always comes down to the terribly unreliable concept of what seems reasonable. Since everyone you have every observed has had grandparents (as far as you can tell) it is reasonable to believe that you probably had grandparents as well. You may not know it with absolute certainty, but your assessment of the probability would approach 100%.




1John2_26 said:
quote]Third, it only takes one genuine error to disprove the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. That being the case, how much evidence would be required to PROVE this doctrine?[[/quote]
I am not asking for proof, I am asking for a good reason to believe. Proof, either way, is impossible. You can always find apparent inconsistency, either internally within the Bible, or an apparent inconsistency with reality. However, apologists will always find a way to rationalize them.

This is true of other belief systems as well. Atheism requires a bit of rationalizing. No belief system fits reality without a bit of mental tinkering.



1John2_26 said:

It's reasonable for a layperson to be skeptical of the "miracles" in the Bible or to doubt that it (or any history!) is inerrant. The problem arises when your run of the mill Skeptic (or Christian for that matter) picks up the Bible cold, and decides to interpret it for themself. That is becuase the Bible is an ancient and complex document which is impossible to properly understand until it is placed in the correct socio-historical context.

Right, because God was incapable of clear writing? The fact that it requires all this deep interpretation is part of the problem. I would be much more inclined to believe it if it spelled things out in a precise and clear manner. I would also be more inclined to believe it if it gave reasons for the ethics it proscribes.

Homosexuality is wrong... Why?
Eternal Damnation rather than rehabilitation - Why?


I am sure you will find quotes from the Bible to answer these two questions, but I bet they will be shallow explanations at best.

[DrProctopus]

SeekingTheTruth said:

This is not true. Everything in the Torah works out. I've had numerous questions answered, so for me the Torah is true. I can't find a fault.

But, if you want to believe it is true, then you will interpret events to match your belief.

Tell me this, how old do you believe this universe is?

If anyone has any questions that may disprove the Torah or even just might challenge Jewish ways, please ask me. If I can not find an answer then my thought on Judaism will change, till then The Torah is 100 percent perfect.

You are assuming the null hypothesis

But Muhammad and Islam came after Judaism so there was such a conept of a hard religion. But since Judaism was the first it was completely different then any other religions the Jews came across.

Human beings are willing accept hard religions. I believe you are saying that the torah must be true, because humans would not have accepted it unless God inspired them to do so. This is a claim, but have to first establish that humans are unwilling to accept hard religions. I would challenge you to find a religion that is not hard. It seems obvious to me that people living in harsh times will create a religion that reflects the harshness of their lives.

Besides, there is clear social darwinism at work here. The religion that acquires the most adherents will win. Judaism has survived because Jews have very strong social requirements for parents to indoctriante their children.

Basically, it had better internal marketing than, say, egyptian pagan beliefs. Fear works.

There are many skeptics and people who claim that it is not true. But don't take their word for it. See for yourself. Go to a presentation that uses the Torah and you will never have two thought about it again. Iv'e been to one and there is no denying it.

You do not want to deny it, that is all. The same processes work on other books. Have you read any of the skeptic sites that genuinely sit down and debunk Bible codes?

here is a start for you:
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html

[DrProctopus]

Joer said:

QED says you have to ask if any of it (the bible) is the word of God.

I say even if only some of it is the word of GOD wouldn't it be worth knowing?

I have no idea how one could determine which parts are divine and which parts are not.

That’s why we don’t need to look any further than what’s in our heart guided by the Holy Spirit to determine what is of the Kingdom and what is not.

With some modification, I might actually agree with you. We have an internal sense of right and wrong.

However, some of the big points in the Bible just seem horribly wrong to me. Eternal damnation is just too warped to be believable. Am I really supposed to believe that God is incapable of creating a system of rehabilitation? It seems more reasonable to believe that the concept of eternal hell derives from myth. The myth may derive from experiences that people had, visions, near death experiences, etc... But the interpretation of those experiences is vastly open to question.

Besides, people have those types of experiences nowadays as well - why not look to modern, documentable experiences to try to figure out what is going on?

Even today Atheists who don’t even believe in God follow his will and commandments better than many Christians just based on their secular moral standards.

Amen

[SeekingTheTruth]

I think it was a promise, blessing or favoritism not a prophesy.

Yeah, it was a promise. A promise about the future, which is a prophecy. But some people believe that the Torah is not the word of G-d so the promise wouldn't mean anything. But this shows you that only a being that truly knows everything could predict something like that.

[SeekingTheTruth]

Human beings are willing accept hard religions. I believe you are saying that the torah must be true, because humans would not have accepted it unless God inspired them to do so.

No, thats not all I'm saying. The Torah talks about Moses receiving the Torah on Mt. Sinai and all of the Hebrews were there witnessing it. Not only witnessing but Hearing the first two commandments from G-d Himself. If this never took place and it was a lie, then the first generation that was introduced to Judaism and the Torah would not have accepted it because they would have read it and known that they were not there and it didn't actually happen.

This is how we know it happened which means that there is a G-d and he did give the Hews the Torah.

[juliod]

If this never took place and it was a lie, then the first generation that was introduced to Judaism and the Torah would not have accepted it because they would have read it and known that they were not there and it didn't actually happen.

Or this story could have been invented long after the religion had been established.

DanZ