Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

[pax]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

[Metatron]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about. All I saw was a false analogy about people jumping off cliffs. A closer analogy might go something like:

Believe in this two thousand year old story of my god offering himself as a scapegoat for your sins or my god will throw you off that 500 ft. cliff.

[pax]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

[Metatron]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

[pax]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

God does not desire you to jump off the cliff, but if you want to jump off the cliff He will not stop you. He will warn you and reason with you and even plead with you, but He won't stop you. He gave you free will so that you would love and obey Him freely. He doesn't want people with the mentality of lab-rats.

[Metatron]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

God does not desire you to jump off the cliff, but if you want to jump off the cliff He will not stop you. He will warn you and reason with you and even plead with you, but He won't stop you. He gave you free will so that you would love and obey Him freely. He doesn't want people with the mentality of lab-rats.

And back we circle again to a repeat of the cliff analogy wherein you called everyone else's statements absurd but have done nothing to support your own but provide an irrelevant link to the presumed occurrence at Fatima. Several posters here have demonstrated why they believe that your analogy is inaccurate and have provided alternative analogies which you have failed to refute. Care to take a shot at that?

[pax]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

God does not desire you to jump off the cliff, but if you want to jump off the cliff He will not stop you. He will warn you and reason with you and even plead with you, but He won't stop you. He gave you free will so that you would love and obey Him freely. He doesn't want people with the mentality of lab-rats.

And back we circle again to a repeat of the cliff analogy wherein you called everyone else's statements absurd but have done nothing to support your own but provide an irrelevant link to the presumed occurrence at Fatima. Several posters here have demonstrated why they believe that your analogy is inaccurate and have provided alternative analogies which you have failed to refute. Care to take a shot at that?

Ok. So you didn't read the link. That much is obvious or you would get the connection.

Anyways, I choose what posts I respond to. If someone wants to give an alternate opinion on something I choose whether to address it or not. Generally speaking, talking to youse atheist guys about God and religion is a big waste of time. All you want to do is beat up your straw-god all day long with no compunction to maybe educate yerselves to the point where you could actually take a shot at beating up the real God.

[Metatron]

Excellent points, Nick. If someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you love him, you may say "I love you" to this person, but would such "love" be real? Of course not, it would simply be obedience under duress. It's pure self-preservation rather than any sort of meaningful love.

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

God does not desire you to jump off the cliff, but if you want to jump off the cliff He will not stop you. He will warn you and reason with you and even plead with you, but He won't stop you. He gave you free will so that you would love and obey Him freely. He doesn't want people with the mentality of lab-rats.

And back we circle again to a repeat of the cliff analogy wherein you called everyone else's statements absurd but have done nothing to support your own but provide an irrelevant link to the presumed occurrence at Fatima. Several posters here have demonstrated why they believe that your analogy is inaccurate and have provided alternative analogies which you have failed to refute. Care to take a shot at that?

Ok. So you didn't read the link. That much is obvious or you would get the connection.

Anyways, I choose what posts I respond to. If someone wants to give an alternate opinion on something I choose whether to address it or not. Generally speaking, talking to youse atheist guys about God and religion is a big waste of time. All you want to do is beat up your straw-god all day long with no compunction to maybe educate yerselves to the point where you could actually take a shot at beating up the real God.

Well this is after all a debate site. The guiding principle of debate is point, rebuttal, counter-point. Rinse and repeat. If one simply continues to assert the same point repeatedly without bothering to rebut other debaters points then it devolves into proselytizing rather than debate. I believe there is an area on this forum called the Holy Huddle if you wish to discuss these matters free of contention. Out here in C&A you can assume that people will actively argue against your position and you should be prepared to defend it.

[pax]

If I say to you: "If you jump off that 500 cliff over there you are going to die" and you go ahead and jump off the cliff and you die, how have I threatened you? How have I extorted you?

Don't youse guys ever get tired of making absurd statements?

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

God does not desire you to jump off the cliff, but if you want to jump off the cliff He will not stop you. He will warn you and reason with you and even plead with you, but He won't stop you. He gave you free will so that you would love and obey Him freely. He doesn't want people with the mentality of lab-rats.

And back we circle again to a repeat of the cliff analogy wherein you called everyone else's statements absurd but have done nothing to support your own but provide an irrelevant link to the presumed occurrence at Fatima. Several posters here have demonstrated why they believe that your analogy is inaccurate and have provided alternative analogies which you have failed to refute. Care to take a shot at that?

Ok. So you didn't read the link. That much is obvious or you would get the connection.

Anyways, I choose what posts I respond to. If someone wants to give an alternate opinion on something I choose whether to address it or not. Generally speaking, talking to youse atheist guys about God and religion is a big waste of time. All you want to do is beat up your straw-god all day long with no compunction to maybe educate yerselves to the point where you could actually take a shot at beating up the real God.

Well this is after all a debate site. The guiding principle of debate is point, rebuttal, counter-point. Rinse and repeat. If one simply continues to assert the same point repeatedly without bothering to rebut other debaters points then it devolves into proselytizing rather than debate. I believe there is an area on this forum called the Holy Huddle if you wish to discuss these matters free of contention. Out here in C&A you can assume that people will actively argue against your position and you should be prepared to defend it.

There was only one other response besides your own made to my post.

Not "several posters".

Get your facts straight.

From Opiate-- "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him.

It is blasphemy to say that God created sin. Why would I then engage him? All that will do is give him more opportunities, through me, to commit more blasphemy. I cannot be a part of that.

[OpiatefortheMasses]

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

It is demonstrable for those who will accept the proof, but for those who have already decided that no proof is acceptable it is not demonstrable.

Hmm... I must have missed this proof your talking about.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

I guess I'm missing what the connection is between Fatima and your jumping off a cliff analogy.

God does not desire you to jump off the cliff, but if you want to jump off the cliff He will not stop you. He will warn you and reason with you and even plead with you, but He won't stop you. He gave you free will so that you would love and obey Him freely. He doesn't want people with the mentality of lab-rats.

And back we circle again to a repeat of the cliff analogy wherein you called everyone else's statements absurd but have done nothing to support your own but provide an irrelevant link to the presumed occurrence at Fatima. Several posters here have demonstrated why they believe that your analogy is inaccurate and have provided alternative analogies which you have failed to refute. Care to take a shot at that?

Ok. So you didn't read the link. That much is obvious or you would get the connection.

Anyways, I choose what posts I respond to. If someone wants to give an alternate opinion on something I choose whether to address it or not. Generally speaking, talking to youse atheist guys about God and religion is a big waste of time. All you want to do is beat up your straw-god all day long with no compunction to maybe educate yerselves to the point where you could actually take a shot at beating up the real God.

Well this is after all a debate site. The guiding principle of debate is point, rebuttal, counter-point. Rinse and repeat. If one simply continues to assert the same point repeatedly without bothering to rebut other debaters points then it devolves into proselytizing rather than debate. I believe there is an area on this forum called the Holy Huddle if you wish to discuss these matters free of contention. Out here in C&A you can assume that people will actively argue against your position and you should be prepared to defend it.

There was only one other response besides your own made to my post.

Not "several posters".

Get your facts straight.

From Opiate-- "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him.

It is blasphemy to say that God created sin. Why would I then engage him? All that will do is give him more opportunities, through me, to commit more blasphemy. I cannot be a part of that.

Why would it be considered "blasphemy" when if you look at the origin of sin it's actually true that "god" did create it? In the bible "god" created Adam and Eve. He created them without the knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong) and placed them in the garden. He also created the tree bearing the "forbidden fruit" and left well within their reach. Now, he told them to not eat the fruit but when you consider the fact that they had no idea (or very little idea) about good or evil so it's safe to say their understanding of the situation was limited at best. I'd say mentally they'd be closer to a child of 2 or 3 rather than an adult. Given the fact that "god" is described as "all-knowing" it's safe to say he knew this as well as the fact that if he left something he didn't want them to have within their reach the chances they'd get to it were pretty good to say the least. When include the ability of foresight (which I'm sure falls under "all-powerful") it also means he knew the outcome before they they were even created. This alone makes "god" directly responsible for the creation of sin in the bible. Let's also not forget that he let the "devil" in the garden to push the envelope so to speak.

Think of it in terms of parenting. If a parent places an infant in a play pen with something that could harm them and simply tells them "don't touch it" and they do, who's to blame?