The End Times Are Very Near

[axeplayer]

There is a lot of evidence supporting the idea that the end times and the rapture are very near to happening. for example, the United Nations fulfill the prophesy that very near to the end times, the world will be united as one, and there will be peace on the earth(even though we're a long way from peace). also, barcodes, credit cards etc. are an early warning to the mark of the beast being used to pay for all of our expenses. In college station, Texas, there are stores where you can pay for your groceries, appliances, etc., with your thumbprint. So what does everyone else think? Are the end times and Judgement Day near?

[juliod]

You are associating a theology of Christianity with people's actions without any evidence.

I still don't understand your position. Are you saying that I have described these people wrong? Or that the movement doesn't exist? Or that it isn't "mainstream" christianity? Or something else?

http://www.leftbehind.com/

http://secure.agoramedia.com/leftbehind ... mail=&pu=0

http://www.leftbehind-themovie.com/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/st ... 99-3994551

DanZ

[micatala]

While I don't share juliod's very negative view of religion and christianity, I do share his concern about the 'end times' movement. I know many Christians personally who believe literally in the "Left Behind" scenario portrayed by LaHaye, and yes, it does affect their actions. On the basis of their interpretation of revelation, they are extremely staunch, absolute supporters of Israel. It affects how they vote. It affects how they spend their money. It affects where they go on vacation, as many have taken trips to Israel to support Israel as a state or to do what they can to further the fulfillment of the prophecies. It plays into how they view the war on terrorism and the Islamic religion bigtime. It exacerbates the 'us versus them' attitude that says "if you are not one of us, and do not support our view and our agenda, then you are serving the devil, even if unwittingly." It densensitizes them to much of the suffering going on in the world. Since they believe it is 'all part of God's plan,' if some people die as a result of war or Tsunami's or earthquakes, then that may be regrettable but it does not diminish their view that it is inevitable and in some sense to be welcomed. I have heard people say that, since Christ is coming soon, we don't have to really worry about environmental problems since it is a moot point.

As a Christian, it bothers me that these views have gained so much credence and have taken on a life of their own. The movement seems to ignore that interpreting prophecy is a highly subjective and tricky business, and that prophecies which do 'come true' almost never come true in the way that people at the time would have expected.

[Bent]

I was reading an article about certain right-wing churches that have specific beliefs about the End of the World. The danger is that they seem to have the ear of the current administration.

I saw a documentary recently, a French-made production called "On God's Right". Worth seeing if you can find it (it's actually what got me started thinking about all this stuff). It was basically about the recent rise of the Christian right-wing in the USA. They are there, they exist and they have a lot of money behind them. They also have at least some influence in government decision-making. This doco showed part of a church-made video, that was a 'how-to' instructional film on getting involved in politics at the local grass-roots level. It seems they have the patience to start at the bottom and work their way up. It also showed a Christian university (I forget it's name) that teaches subjects like law and politics, from a fundamental Christian perspective. The buildings in this university were very well appointed too, marble and everything. There was definitely a lot of wealth behind it.

While the US is supposed to operate on the principle of 'separation of church and state', I don't think they are quite as separate as they should be.

It affects how they vote. It affects how they spend their money.

That's the big problem. If an ambitious 'true believer' ran for office, there would be plenty of voters and contributors behind him/her.

[Dilettante]

992, 999, 1033, 1186, 1260, 1524, 1532, 1533, 1537, 1544, 1572, 1584, 1588, 1648, 1654, 1665, 1666, 1704, 1719, 1736, 1757, 1761, 1774, 1801, 1814, 1820, 1843, 1874, 1881, 1914, 1936, 1947, 1953, 1974, 1975, 1977, 1980, 1996, 1999, 2000...

The end of the world was supposed to have come in each of those years according to predictions or prophecies by different religious leaders, mystics or psychics. And every time it was put off. Still, people are claiming to know when it's going to happen.

I agree with others on this thread that the scary thing is that some milenarist/adventist sects may actually want the end times to come a.s.a.p. And that, if they continue to gain political clout, they might even do things to try and speed things up. A global nuclear disaster was averted in the past, but we should keep our eyes open in case someone is too eager to see the battle of Armageddon in his lifetime. We're all in the same boat, no matter what our religious or non-religious views are.
Granted these people are still marginal, but unfortunately they're gaining more and more influence with certain politicians of a certain party. And they may well become a real dangerous influence.

[youngborean]

You are associating a theology of Christianity with people's actions without any evidence.

I still don't understand your position. Are you saying that I have described these people wrong? Or that the movement doesn't exist? Or that it isn't "mainstream" christianity? Or something else?

http://www.leftbehind.com/

http://secure.agoramedia.com/leftbehind ... mail=&pu=0

http://www.leftbehind-themovie.com/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/st ... 99-3994551

DanZ

I believe the mistakes made in the previous article and your previous posts were to make an outlandish association between people that believe in an end of the world and people that want Israel to launch nukes. I hardly think that you can isolate Bush's christianity and say he is doing these things because of Armagedden, especially since support of Israel has existed throughout every US president since 67. Moyer's article inferred that christians that believe in the end days also believe that Jews will burn at the time of the rapture. You inferred (with no evidence) that Christians who have this theology support Israel launching nukes.

I was reading an article about certain right-wing churches that have specific beliefs about the End of the World. The danger is that they seem to have the ear of the current administration.

Thier view of the future is particularly dangerous. They think that soon Israel will build a new Temple, then there will be a general war in the middle east where Israel will deploy nuclear weapons. The danger is this: They want this war to come about.

Their theology states that once Israel unleashes nuclear wepons then Jesus will come back, take all the christians to heaven, and destroy the world. They expect to sit at the right hand of Jesus in paradise. But until there is a major war in the middle-east they can't sit next to Jesus. Peace in the middle-east is, to them, unthinkable.

This is hardly even mainstream of the theology of the end times and is inconsistent with mainstream christianity as a whole.

Then you said:

Here is an article that refers to this form of christianity. It is not a minor faction.

Moyer attributed the burning of Jews to millions of voters, without any real evidence.

As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture.

You have later shown that many Christians believe in the end times, so what? My point is that you have in no way shown an association between this particular theology and the political model you suggest. You suggested all Christians who believe in the end times want Israel to launch nukes. This is the kind of hateful and ignorant rhetoric that causing such deep divides in our world right now. I find your limited evidence coupled with slanderous remarks about people who believe in this theology offensive. Does an individual's religion affect their politics? Absolutely. But the remarks you and Moyer have made about people who hold this theology is meant to incite only, even worse it is hardly a representation of scipture or based on evidence of a major faction that you seem to be suggesting.

[MagusYanam]

Though juliod's phrasing does tend at times toward the blunt and even tactless, the points he makes are all too valid. The dispensationalist form of Christianity that is on the rise in America is a dangerous one. When the Bible is viewed as a key to the End Times, all other significance it has is cast to the wayside. I have acquaintances, family members, who buy into this premillenialist theology - and it scares me. They have said things about the hopelessness of the situation in the Middle East and about the environment which are to me almost unthinkable. It seems sometimes as though they think that we should either give up and wait for God to solve it or speed up the process so God will solve it sooner.

In the Gospel of St. Matthew, Jesus issued a warning to his age that is sadly becoming relevant again today: 'An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of the prophet, Jonah' (St. Matthew 12:39). And here we have an evil and adulterous generation seeking a sign of the End Times, believing the solution to the problems of our age to be in their ignorance (at best) or their exacerbation (at worst). Jonah was called into Nineveh to warn the citizens to improve their souls, which is what needs to be done here and now - only we are called upon today not only to improve our souls, but to improve our world. Jesus was not coming to give us a sign or some key to the End Times, but to give us a direction toward our own salvations.

[youngborean]

Though juliod's phrasing does tend at times toward the blunt and even tactless, the points he makes are all too valid.

Then perhaps you would like to defend them with evidence? How does wanting God to deliver you equate to any of the stances that are proposed. All religions have some sort of doomsday scenario. Many scientists predict a doomsday based on consumption. Why are Christians getting singled out on this? I undoubtedly believe that Jesus will return, but that hardly makes me in support of Israeli nuclear war. How can you say this particular point is in any way valid? Like I stated before, religion or philosophy will always inform an individuals politics. But the retorhic is way off base here.

[MagusYanam]

Then perhaps you would like to defend them with evidence?

I did. Pardon me if I refuse to name names on a public forum, but personal experience, last time I checked, was a valid form of evidence.

How does wanting God to deliver you equate to any of the stances that are proposed. All religions have some sort of doomsday scenario.

That, my friend, is an empirically false assertion. Confucianism has no doomsday scenario, being one of the most practical of religions. Confucianism deals with the here and now (namely the proper behaviour for members of a just society) as we should probably be doing more.

Why are Christians getting singled out on this?

You misconstrue my argument. I am not singling out Christianity and I am going to give juliod the benefit of the doubt and assume he was not either. I am singling out dispensational premillenialism, which has historically been (and is still, to my mind, though one with an undue amount of influence) a fringe group on the far right wing of Christianity. The dispensational premillenialists believe that Jesus shall come again in vengeance and destruction and usher in a literal war on the plains of Megiddo to end the world. This is dangerous, especially when one considers that religious belief always influences a person's polity. And it sickens me that this particular strain of Christianity has managed to strip away everything that makes Christianity meaningful and good.

I, for one, am not convinced that Jesus has left us in the first place. He visited the disciples again, and was lifted into Heaven, but that does not mean he left. His presence and his influence here on earth grew with the Church and with the coming of the Holy Spirit. If that is not enough and Jesus is to come again, I cannot reconcile the scenario of vengeance and violence with the Jesus I came to know through the Gospel, the one who would forgive his brother seventy times seven times. If anything, if Jesus does come again, I believe it will be in a human form more humble, more giving, more loving and compassionate than his first. Jesus was and will be the Lamb.

[juliod]

Then perhaps you would like to defend them with evidence?

I don't know what evidence you would want, beyond the web pages I already posted. After looking them up, I am more scared than I was before.

There have always been loonies who think the earth is about to end. But what is different is that this notion is moving into the mainstream. That is (in part) what the Moyer article was about.

We have a large segment of the population who are forming their politico-social opinions based on the notion that we are only a few weeks away from the Rapture. And as we know, the fact that the prophesies continue to fail to come true does not deter them one bit.

The danger is this:

"get to see Jesus" = "good thing'

and

'Nuclear war" = "get to see Jesus"

I think you can do the math...

And it's not a question of supporting Israel. Everyone supports Israel in terms of their rights to self-determination and to live in peace. It's a question of defining "supporting Israel" to mean "encouraging a regional nuclear war".

In the past it was "support Israel" in terms of long-term security and regional stability. Now it is "support Israel" in terms of "help them build the new Temple so Revelations will come true and I can see Jesus..." Peace in the middle-east becomes an obstruction to the "will of god".

DanZ

[youngborean]

We have a large segment of the population who are forming their politico-social opinions based on the notion that we are only a few weeks away from the Rapture. And as we know, the fact that the prophesies continue to fail to come true does not deter them one bit.

The danger is this:

"get to see Jesus" = "good thing'

and

'Nuclear war" = "get to see Jesus"

I think you can do the math...

Hardly. This is the same thing as saying that all nihilists support child molestation. It is a complete non-sequitor. Now this would be a fringe view within the theology (just like there could potentially be nihilists that are child molestors). But you and Moyer are arguing that the fringe view is the predominant view without any evidence. So what if the general theology is moving into the mainstream? The theology that is moving into the mainstream (Lehaye) hardly promotes a pro-Israeli nuclear war. You made that statement without any evidence of it as a mainstream theology. Just like Moyer made the case that all of these millions of Christians believe that Jews will burn (i.e. they're Nazis). So back to my original point. You are right in saying that many Christians believe in the end of the world, so what? You are dead wrong in stereotyping these types of Christians as pro-nuclear holocaust. Especially without evidence.