Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

Yes, that does seem to show that our pal is supposing that Jesusfaith is what saves, not works. Which is how i read it, too.

As well as the clear message that Jesus was a blood sacrifice with a Passover lamb as a symbol of it in order to make a loophole in God's law of sin - death (but only for those who sign up get an account, password and security code- not Everyone gets saved for nothing - ohh nooo). But we got the 'it does not say those exact words' evasion.

We have seen some pretty ludicrous, clumsy and frankly poor efforts by our pal to escape serious questions. But it is never about the amount of denial to prop up the Faith but about the case that can be made to the undecided

Even if 1213 gave the most stellar argument or put forward the best case possible, the starting point is the problem. This starting point is the Bible itself. When the topic of "salvation" is said to be placed directly into the mouth of Jesus, Jesus gives differing answers at differing times. Case/point:

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus expresses the differences between a "sheep" and a "goat". The "sheep" are chosen while the "goats" or not. The description given of the "sheep" does not involve or include Jesus-faith, or answer B), anywhere. Jesus instead emphasizes works, or answer C). This passage reads as if works alone can earn favor. In other areas of the Bible, when Jesus is again to have a direct say about salvation, Jesus emphasizes Jesus-faith, or answer B). These passages would include John 14:1, John 20:29, Romans 10:9-10., etc.........

And this is before we discuss if BOTH are needed, or answer D) - Jesus-faith and works? And if it is answer D), as many seem to pick, then how much of each is required? I mean, is your faith directly measured by your number of good works/deeds? Is it other?

And on top off all of this, what is to come of the folks who cannot apply these requirements? Are they given grace/immunity? If so, then do we ignore the above, or is the answer really A) - unconditional grace since Jesus already sacrificed himself and we humans cannot really truly earn salvation regardless?

The over-arching point being, stating you are a Christian alone means very little. You have three distinct branches (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic). And then these three main branches splinter off into almost countless sub-sections. Many of which, have opposing specific requirements for salvation.

Why would 'Jesus' be pleased with the message he left behind about arguably the most important topic of all, salvation? This question has been placed to Christians here, countless times, and I have yet to really see any answer, if at all, which suffices.

[1213]

Then the only way one is deemed (righteous), is by applying (Jesus-faith).

Why should anyone believe your non-Biblical claims?

Nope, there is no scripture in the Bible that says "you cannot be 'sinless'". It is fascinating why you make stuff up like that.

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"
Romans 7:14–24: While in the flesh, people will always struggle with a sinful nature

Neither of those mean people can't be sinless.

Only Jesus is/was/always "sinless". This is why Jesus acted as a 'sheep', as the only "sinless" being to atone for all sinners. This is "Christianity 101."

And I think that part of "Christianity" is not Biblical, because Bible shows sins could be forgiven without any sacrifice.

[POI]

Why should anyone believe your non-Biblical claims?

It's not my claim, it's directly from the book you revere:

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Neither of those mean people can't be sinless.

Yes they do. You offer nothing but more denial here.

And I think that part of "Christianity" is not Biblical, because Bible shows sins could be forgiven without any sacrifice.

Then Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

*************************************************

Also:

"Matthew 20:28 reminds us that he “did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” In theological terms, this is called “substitutionary atonement.” Christ died on the cross as our substitute. Without Him, we would suffer the death penalty for our own sins"

‘He [God] made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

“And while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:23-24).

“And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith… your faith is futile; you are still in your sins” (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17).

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)."

[POI]

Current answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good', and may also not include the attributes of B)
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

**********************************

I posted this response to Transponder, but see it as a pressing viewpoint to all believers who care to engage:

Even if a believer gave the most stellar argument or put forward the best case possible, the starting point is the problem. This starting point is the Bible itself. When the topic of "salvation" is said to be placed directly into the mouth of Jesus, Jesus gives differing answers at differing times. Case/point:

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus expresses the differences between a "sheep" and a "goat". The "sheep" are chosen while the "goats" or not. The description given of the "sheep" does not involve or include Jesus-faith, or answer B), anywhere. Jesus instead emphasizes works, or answer C). This passage reads as if works alone can earn favor. In other areas of the Bible, when Jesus is again to have a direct say about salvation, Jesus emphasizes Jesus-faith, or answer B). These passages would include John 14:1, John 20:29, Romans 10:9-10., etc.........

And this is before we discuss if BOTH are needed, or answer D) - Jesus-faith and works? And if it is answer D), as many seem to pick, then how much of each is required? I mean, is your faith directly measured by your number of good works/deeds? Is it other?

And on top off all of this, what is to come of the folks who cannot apply these requirements? Are they given grace/immunity? If so, then do we ignore the above, or is the answer really A) - unconditional grace since Jesus already sacrificed himself and we humans cannot really truly earn salvation regardless?

The over-arching point being, stating you are a Christian alone means very little. You have three distinct branches (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic). And then these three main branches splinter off into almost countless sub-sections. Many of which, have opposing specific requirements for salvation.

Why would 'Jesus' be pleased with the message he left behind about arguably the most important topic of all, salvation? This question has been placed to Christians here, countless times, and I have yet to really see any answer, if at all, which suffices.

[POI]

Topic bump... Aside from post 994, which no Christian addressed, there is still more confusion...

EVEN IF the Christian concept was somehow true, which one is the correct one, as they cannot all be correct? (i.e.) -- We have three major systems, which splinter into multiple subsystems. Let's start here... Which of these (3) systems is the beginning of the correct one to follow, between (the Catholics vs the Protestants vs Orthodox), regarding how God makes his selection(s) for Heaven?

[1213]

...
In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus expresses the differences between a "sheep" and a "goat". The "sheep" are chosen while the "goats" or not. The description given of the "sheep" does not involve or include Jesus-faith, or answer B), anywhere. Jesus instead emphasizes works, or answer C). This passage reads as if works alone can earn favor. In other areas of the Bible, when Jesus is again to have a direct say about salvation, Jesus emphasizes Jesus-faith, or answer B). These passages would include John 14:1, John 20:29, Romans 10:9-10., etc.........

And this is before we discuss if BOTH are needed, or answer D) - Jesus-faith and works? And if it is answer D), as many seem to pick, then how much of each is required? I mean, is your faith directly measured by your number of good works/deeds? Is it other?....

I think the key to understand those scriptures is that eternal life is promised for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

God saves those who are righteous, not because of what they do, but because what they are. And if person is righteous, he is loyal (faithful) to God. And if person is righteous and faithful, it will become visible also in persons actions, which faith also is. And it is like Jesus said, by fruits you will know them.

By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter in-to the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:15-21
…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

[POI]

[Replying to 1213 in post #996]

This reads as if you believe God judges one by their actions, and not just their words alone. To say it another way, 'actions speak louder than words.' Your response looks to align with answer D), as noted from post 994. Would you agree?

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #996]

This reads as if you believe God judges one by their actions, and not just their words alone. To say it another way, 'actions speak louder than words.' Your response looks to align with answer D), as noted from post 994. Would you agree?

Actions and words tells what kind of person one is. And if person is righteous, he is saved. But it is not because person deserves it by the actions. It is by mercy.

[POI]

[Replying to 1213 in post #996]

This reads as if you believe God judges one by their actions, and not just their words alone. To say it another way, 'actions speak louder than words.' Your response looks to align with answer D), as noted from post 994. Would you agree?

Actions and words tells what kind of person one is. And if person is righteous, he is saved. But it is not because person deserves it by the actions. It is by mercy.

Then the answer is instead A)?

[1213]

Then the answer is instead A)?

Unconditional grace, if it means you cannot earn it by doing something.