Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....
The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.
Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).
So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.
Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.
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potwalloper.
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Post #91
Sorry but the pagan Gods (which predate Christianity) on which Santa is based have never claimed to live at the North Pole - and even if Santa does live at the North Pole who is to say that his North Pole is our North Pole?We know that Santa does not exist because he claims to live in the North Pole, at the very northern-most point on this planet. There is no Santa village there with elves. We have satalites and everything to see that location with.
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Santa is the sleigh, the roof, and the night...
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chrispalasz
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Post #92
Santa is definately not based off of the pagan gods and Santa does not predate Christianity. So, to everyone that makes this claim - let's see some credible sources.Sorry but the pagan gods (which predate Christianity) on which Santa is based have never claimed to live at the North Pole - and even if Santa does live at the North Pole who is to say that his North Pole is our North Pole?
Santa Clause is actually based off of the Dutch legend of Sinterklaas (St. Nicholas).
Are you telling me that Santa does NOT live in the North Pole on earth? If this is true, WHERE does he live? What North Pole does he live at???
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potwalloper.
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Post #94
Greenlight311 wrote:
Just as Christmas has nothing to do with the (alleged) birth of Christ so Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and has its origins in pagan religions.
It is well known that the name Santa Claus comes from a distortion of the name of St Nicholas which was based upon a tale about a person called Nicholas of Myra the bishop of Myra in Asia Minor who was cast into exile and prison during the persecution of Emperor Diocletian and released by Constantine the Great and died in Myra about 350.
However the true basis of Santa stretches back well before Christian times (St Nicolaus a gift-giver as a concept was almost certainly a Christianisation of these earlier Gods to facilitate the spread of Christianity through Northern Europe) and the legend of a God who comes during Winter and brings gifts during the most difficult of times is well established in many cultures and has survived (albeit in a distorted form) to this day.
Examples of the parrallels between Santa and pagan Gods include the Teutonic god of the air, Odin, who would ride through the air on a gray horse (named Sleipnir) each Autumn - so did Nicholas; Odin had a long white beard - so did Nicholas; a sheaf of grain was left in the field for Odin's horse - children left a wisp of straw in their shoes for Nicholas. There is some evidence that attributes of the Germanic god Thor, the god of thunder, were transferred to Nicholas. Thor was supposedly elderly and heavy with a long white beard; he rode through the air in a chariot drawn by two white goats (called Cracker and Gnasher); he dressed in red; his palace was in the "northland;" he was friendly and cheerful; he would come down the chimney into his element, the fire.
Mikoula, the god of harvest, Befana, Hold Nickar, the links are numerous. Even as far as India and China a “hearth god”, similar to Santa, is given tributes to at times when food is short and survives to this day.
The legend of Rudolph the Red-nosed reindeer may be linked to the ancient practice in some Northern European countries of utilising the hallucinogenic properties of bright red fly agaric mushrooms (don’t try this yourself as they are very toxic) to make gods appear in Winter time. The mushrooms were apparently fed to a reindeer and then a wise man would drink the reindeer’s urine (free of the toxins but with the hallucinogenic drug still intact) to become closer to the spirit world. Tasty…
As a god Santa has a longer history and as great a provenance as the Christian god. The God’s of Santa’s origin were worshipped by adults and believed in fervently at the time. Just because we no longer run short of food at Winter (and therefore no longer turn to the Santa god for help at that time of year) does not make his claim to existence any less valid than that of a Christian (or any other) god.
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Santa is the sleigh, the roof, and the night
Where do I begin?Santa is definately not based off of the pagan gods and Santa does not predate Christianity. So, to everyone that makes this claim - let's see some credible sources.
Santa Clause is actually based off of the Dutch legend of Sinterklaas (St. Nicholas).
Just as Christmas has nothing to do with the (alleged) birth of Christ so Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and has its origins in pagan religions.
It is well known that the name Santa Claus comes from a distortion of the name of St Nicholas which was based upon a tale about a person called Nicholas of Myra the bishop of Myra in Asia Minor who was cast into exile and prison during the persecution of Emperor Diocletian and released by Constantine the Great and died in Myra about 350.
However the true basis of Santa stretches back well before Christian times (St Nicolaus a gift-giver as a concept was almost certainly a Christianisation of these earlier Gods to facilitate the spread of Christianity through Northern Europe) and the legend of a God who comes during Winter and brings gifts during the most difficult of times is well established in many cultures and has survived (albeit in a distorted form) to this day.
Examples of the parrallels between Santa and pagan Gods include the Teutonic god of the air, Odin, who would ride through the air on a gray horse (named Sleipnir) each Autumn - so did Nicholas; Odin had a long white beard - so did Nicholas; a sheaf of grain was left in the field for Odin's horse - children left a wisp of straw in their shoes for Nicholas. There is some evidence that attributes of the Germanic god Thor, the god of thunder, were transferred to Nicholas. Thor was supposedly elderly and heavy with a long white beard; he rode through the air in a chariot drawn by two white goats (called Cracker and Gnasher); he dressed in red; his palace was in the "northland;" he was friendly and cheerful; he would come down the chimney into his element, the fire.
Mikoula, the god of harvest, Befana, Hold Nickar, the links are numerous. Even as far as India and China a “hearth god”, similar to Santa, is given tributes to at times when food is short and survives to this day.
The legend of Rudolph the Red-nosed reindeer may be linked to the ancient practice in some Northern European countries of utilising the hallucinogenic properties of bright red fly agaric mushrooms (don’t try this yourself as they are very toxic) to make gods appear in Winter time. The mushrooms were apparently fed to a reindeer and then a wise man would drink the reindeer’s urine (free of the toxins but with the hallucinogenic drug still intact) to become closer to the spirit world. Tasty…
As a god Santa has a longer history and as great a provenance as the Christian god. The God’s of Santa’s origin were worshipped by adults and believed in fervently at the time. Just because we no longer run short of food at Winter (and therefore no longer turn to the Santa god for help at that time of year) does not make his claim to existence any less valid than that of a Christian (or any other) god.
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Santa is the sleigh, the roof, and the night
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chrispalasz
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Post #95
Just as Christmas has nothing to do with the (alleged) birth of Christ so Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and has its origins in pagan religions.
Christmas has everything to do with the birth of Jesus Christ in that it is the day that we celebrate His birth. It may not be the actual day, but big deal. In America, we celebrate the 4th of July... but that's not really the day America became independant.
Without the story of St. Nicholas - the pagan god myths would never have transformed into any form of Santa Clause. So, if you're going to go to the roots of the Santa Clause myth, you must stop at St. Nicholas. There was no Santa Clause prior to that.
Christmas has everything to do with the birth of Jesus Christ in that it is the day that we celebrate His birth. It may not be the actual day, but big deal. In America, we celebrate the 4th of July... but that's not really the day America became independant.
Wrong. That's like saying the true basis of a sundae is the whipped cream. No, that's added on later. This is also the case with the St. Nicholas myth. While it's true that those pagan gods existed prior to Christianity, St. Nicholas serves as the true basis and foundation for Santa Clause and the concept. It was only later that these pagan god myths were added to the story of St. Nicholas.However the true basis of Santa stretches back well before Christian times (St Nicolaus a gift-giver as a concept was almost certainly a Christianisation of these earlier Gods to facilitate the spread of Christianity through Northern Europe) and the legend of a God who comes during Winter and brings gifts during the most difficult of times is well established in many cultures and has survived (albeit in a distorted form) to this day.
Without the story of St. Nicholas - the pagan god myths would never have transformed into any form of Santa Clause. So, if you're going to go to the roots of the Santa Clause myth, you must stop at St. Nicholas. There was no Santa Clause prior to that.
No, many many other things make Santa's (and every other god's) existence less credible than God's existence. The Bible and the testimonies of Christians can be proven to be much more credible than every piece of evidence for Santa.Just because we no longer run short of food at Winter (and therefore no longer turn to the Santa god for help at that time of year) does not make his claim to existence any less valid than that of a Christian (or any other) god.
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chrispalasz
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Santa Joke
Post #97It's a clever, yet falsly applied "game" for people that do not believe in God to switch places and use hardly relevant arguments against believers. When an argument is brought up to shut down the Santa theory, they twist Santa in some way so that their argument works.
And that's exactly where the argument falls. This Santa stuff isn't clear.
1. Adults really do not believe in Santa today.
2. That's because Santa is not real.
3. There is no evidence for Santa to exist.
4. There are no non-fiction books that seriously entertain the possibility that he does exist.
5. The origin of Santa is completely debatable.
6. The arguments and circumstances between Santa and God are anything but parallel.
So, yeah. A joke is beig used as an argument. A definite loophole cannot be found in the Santa argument because whenever a good argument is brought up... the rules change for Santa.
And that's exactly where the argument falls. This Santa stuff isn't clear.
1. Adults really do not believe in Santa today.
2. That's because Santa is not real.
3. There is no evidence for Santa to exist.
4. There are no non-fiction books that seriously entertain the possibility that he does exist.
5. The origin of Santa is completely debatable.
6. The arguments and circumstances between Santa and God are anything but parallel.
So, yeah. A joke is beig used as an argument. A definite loophole cannot be found in the Santa argument because whenever a good argument is brought up... the rules change for Santa.
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potwalloper.
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Post #98
Just as they do for Christianity (or any other religion) when faced with scientific evidence that casts doubt as to the logic of the tenets on which religion is based.A definite loophole cannot be found in the Santa argument because whenever a good argument is brought up... the rules change for Santa.
Sorry but I see no difference between the pagan gods from which Santa came and a Christian God. Perhaps if Christians recognised the multiplicity of gods across all cultures they could open their hearts and realise that, as he was born on Christmas day, Christ was really simply a gift from Santa (and the three wise men were really elves...)
Each is as believable as the other - suspend logic, have faith and believe...
...unless of course you are logical - but logic doesn't have any place in religious belief.
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Santa is the sleigh, the roof, and the night
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chrispalasz
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Post #99
In Response to potwalloper's last post:
The rules for Christianity never change. The existing ones are just able to cover the scientific evidence that is interpreted to go against Christian beliefs.
Correction: The mythical character of Santa did not originate from the pagan gods. He originated from the myth of St. Nicholas. The St. Nicholas myth was then distorted and other beliefs in gods were attributed to it.
Christianity does not suspend logic to use Faith. Logic and Faith both fully support God, and not one without the other.
If Logic didn't have a place in religious belief, there would be no logical believers of any god at all. Are you saying that nobody that believes in a god is logical and that the belief is not logical? That's a pretty mighty claim. Good luck with that.
The rules for Christianity never change. The existing ones are just able to cover the scientific evidence that is interpreted to go against Christian beliefs.
Correction: The mythical character of Santa did not originate from the pagan gods. He originated from the myth of St. Nicholas. The St. Nicholas myth was then distorted and other beliefs in gods were attributed to it.
Christianity does not suspend logic to use Faith. Logic and Faith both fully support God, and not one without the other.
If Logic didn't have a place in religious belief, there would be no logical believers of any god at all. Are you saying that nobody that believes in a god is logical and that the belief is not logical? That's a pretty mighty claim. Good luck with that.
Post #100
Palmera, it’s just a thread to explore the reasons why most Christians don’t believe in Santa, and then seeing if these same arguments should be applied to their own theological beliefs.Just for clarification: is this thread a joke... an excuse for an exercise in mental gymnastics? Are the arguments for the existence of Santa Clause serious?
I don't mean to offend- I am curious.
Don’t fear, I doubt if any agnostics or atheists believe in Santa here - we are just playing the devils advocate. Sort of flipping the table around so agnostics and atheists can make lots of irrefutable statements to see how Christians will counter these arguments.
So yes, it’s got a cheeky, fun side to it, but I hope that some may see the more serious philosophical undercurrents too.
