Hell

[Grayson]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

[Cathar1950]

smokeyparkin:

This really didn't get anywhere did it?

One hell of a topic?

achilles12604:

Topic A - God's system of Justice should be the model for ours and ours should be compared to his, not the other way around.

I was only responding to topic A. That was your topic right? There was no misrepresentation.
You have just shown a ‘’biblical” system. It is not the same, as God’s system, even if you believe it is, doesn’t make it so. If you mean Pauline then you don’t even have a system. You have a “spirit”. That would be experiential. Paul did not have a system he had a belief (his Gospel received from his visions and non-historical) and dumped the law (Torah), except Roman law of course.

[achilles12604]

smokeyparkin:

This really didn't get anywhere did it?

One hell of a topic?

achilles12604:

Topic A - God's system of Justice should be the model for ours and ours should be compared to his, not the other way around.

I was only responding to topic A. That was your topic right? There was no misrepresentation.
You have just shown a ‘’biblical” system. It is not the same, as God’s system, even if you believe it is, doesn’t make it so. If you mean Pauline then you don’t even have a system. You have a “spirit”. That would be experiential. Paul did not have a system he had a belief (his Gospel received from his visions and non-historical) and dumped the law (Torah), except Roman law of course.

I would agree with you except for one thing . . . The Bible was written by dozens of authors over thousands of years. Yet the theme of God's love and justice for his people runs consistantly throughout. Since you seem to have a problem with Paul, we can move to David and his Psalms. John and his books. Ever read the book 1st John? The first chapters are another exact outline of what I just described from Paul and Jesus. So yes, it is "biblical". But the consistency leads me to think it comes from another source. I will adjust my opinion if you can show me any other piece of work from ANYWHERE is all of History. That gives you a lot of options. Show me one other source that is as thorough and linked as the Bible and I will adjust my thinking.

Any Book. Any time. There is my challenge to you.

Also, you were complaining about a fallacy. I listed topic A as the first of two topics which made up the fallacy. Please read the entire post before claiming that I made a mistake in declaring a fallacy.

[Cathar1950]

Any Book. Any time. There is my challenge to you.

Why should I give you one when you don't have one? The bible is a collection of books, poetry, some history, letters collected and brought together at different times by people that were putting together a theme.
The works in it have been edited and redacted with interpolation.
There are many themes and sometimes they are at odds.
If you see a theme then yo are projecting as many have done before.
Yet it is only a sample of ancient writings.
In the bible there are many models that claim to be God's which are man's.
Your claim to God's system is just another system of man's.

[tiberius]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

I agree - why would an all powerful God be bothered that rational thinking people doubted his existence knowing that he had provided no evidence to them?

[Easyrider]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

I agree - why would an all powerful God be bothered that rational thinking people doubted his existence knowing that he had provided no evidence to them?

Recommend you folks read Romans chapters 1 and 2 for your answers.

[McCulloch]

Recommend you folks read Romans chapters 1 and 2 for your answers.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God's existence should be self evident and evident in nature. Anyone who does not believe in God is completely without excuse according to Christian teachings.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

If you do not believe in God the Creator, then you will worship the creation. Without God, you will become immoral and unnatural.

I really do not think that this passage does much for the unbeliever. But it is a really good section for the believer who might know some unbelievers. It provides assurance (unsupported) that his belief is the most natural thing and provides a stereotype of the unbeliever so that the believer can continue in his elitist viewpoint.

Nor does this address the question, "Why would an all powerful God be bothered that rational thinking people doubted his existence knowing that he had provided no evidence to them?" other than to call such people liars and sinners.

Romans 2 wasn't much help either.

[achilles12604]

Any Book. Any time. There is my challenge to you.

Why should I give you one when you don't have one? The bible is a collection of books, poetry, some history, letters collected and brought together at different times by people that were putting together a theme.
The works in it have been edited and redacted with interpolation.
There are many themes and sometimes they are at odds.
If you see a theme then yo are projecting as many have done before.
Yet it is only a sample of ancient writings.
In the bible there are many models that claim to be God's which are man's.
Your claim to God's system is just another system of man's.

I was just wondering if you could. That's all. I do not need to defend the bible in this aspect. It simply is what it is. Defending my point of view of this subject would be like defending that the color blue is actually the color blue.

The Bible contains vast years of history including kings, civilizations, battles, poetry, parables, and all of it revolves around the same idea of God's love and redemption of his people.

Since you basically spelled this out in your post, I guess this little debate is done. The Bible is amazing coherent especially considering it was written by dozens of people over thousands of years. It has no equal in literature.

[Cathar1950]

I was just wondering if you could. That's all. I do not need to defend the bible in this aspect. It simply is what it is. Defending my point of view of this subject would be like defending that the color blue is actually the color blue.

It would be more like defending the color blue when all you see is blue.

The Bible contains vast years of history including kings, civilizations, battles, poetry, parables, and all of it revolves around the same idea of God's love and redemption of his people.

That is hardly the theme. Obedience would be a better theme. Or how about people and God? Except for the book of Ruth, which never mentions him that should cover everything.
Matthew would be about Jesus as the new Moses only better.
John would be about Jesus being God from the beginning. It seems that the theme is rather poor even in the New Testament. I could take a collection of love stories and bind them into a volume and do a better job saying the common theme is love. It isn’t even consistent about “kings, civilizations, battles, poetry, and parables”. I think you are projecting your own story and interpretation upon the material.

[achilles12604]

I was just wondering if you could. That's all. I do not need to defend the bible in this aspect. It simply is what it is. Defending my point of view of this subject would be like defending that the color blue is actually the color blue.

It would be more like defending the color blue when all you see is blue.

The Bible contains vast years of history including kings, civilizations, battles, poetry, parables, and all of it revolves around the same idea of God's love and redemption of his people.

That is hardly the theme. Obedience would be a better theme. Or how about people and God? Except for the book of Ruth, which never mentions him that should cover everything.
Matthew would be about Jesus as the new Moses only better.
John would be about Jesus being God from the beginning. It seems that the theme is rather poor even in the New Testament. I could take a collection of love stories and bind them into a volume and do a better job saying the common theme is love. It isn’t even consistent about “kings, civilizations, battles, poetry, and parables”. I think you are projecting your own story and interpretation upon the material.

On the contrary, this idea is not mine. I have read about this idea from several different authors. I can not remember their names right now, but interviews with them concerning their ideas are found in

"The Case for Faith" Lee Strobel

Also, your definition of love and mine may be different. After all to a child discipline seems to be the oposite of love where for the parent, it is all about loving guidance.

My point is that throughout the Bible, there is a running theme. God's people sin and fall away. He reaches out and brings them back. They fall away. He brings them back. and so on. This theme is very apparent in the Psalms, Isaiah, Exodus, and of course the whole New Testament.

[joer]

achilles12604, Bravo! I like your stuff. You said:

My point is that throughout the Bible, there is a running theme. God's people sin and fall away. He reaches out and brings them back. They fall away. He brings them back. and so on. This theme is very apparent in the Psalms, Isaiah, Exodus, and of course the whole New Testament.

You’re absolutely right about the reoccurrence for thousands of years of us (the people) falling away from God and God bringing us back. On page 4 of this thread I left my ideas on sin and hell that didn’t get much response. I showed how the consequences of Sin are a result of our own choosing. (Free Will) many people still insist on blaming GOD for the consequences we suffer from our own mistakes. Oh Well.

If we chose the to exercise the right (correct) actions in the first place we wouldn’t have to worry about “the Big Inferno”. And as achilles12604 says, GOD has been showing us the “right way” through his prophets and natural occurrences around us for thousands and thousands of years.

You can do God’s Will here on earth if you know what it is. This is for anybody who can’t figure out what God want’s them to do either Day by Day or over time.

Being preplexed by this and after praying to God for some time. I don’t know if it was six months or a couple of years but somewhere in that time frame. God gave me an answer.

My Son taught you what My Will is by what He taught and the WAY He lived his life. If you want to know what My Will is for you, pay attention to what he taught and live how he lived.

I also showed humankind what My Will is many times through the prophets, and Human kind continually forgets what I taught them. Look in the Bible and follow my Son’s teachings and you can live your life according to MY Will.

I felt so stupid that I never thought of that before. Here I am earnestly praying to God to show me his will and It’s been right in front of me my whole life and I haven’t seen it. Then I realize He’s been showing us how to live by his will for thousands of years and we still don’t get it yet.
I was thinking He was going to tell “Do this today” or “Do that today”. Here I am like an idiot waiting for GOD to tell me what to do to live according to his Will Day by Day. Then I come to realize He’s been telling me my whole life even unto my ancestors before I was born, and I still didn’t get it, until after I prayed for him to show me How I can do His Will here on Earth as it is done in Heaven. Man I feel like Homer Simpson when he goes “Dope, Dope, Dope, Dope”.

Now I know what I’m supposed to do. I have to keep praying to Him to give me the Strength and will power to do it. Because Now that I know it. I’m such a weakling and creature of habit, I STILL AM HAVING A HARD TIME DOING SUCH A SIMPLE THING.

Well here are a few things I’ve found in the bible where I found that GOD did tell me how to live according to His Will. Now all I have to do is “JUST DO IT”.
If any of you can relate to how dense I’ve been, I hope this helps. I wonder in any non believers can find any value at all in these quotes of God’s guidance issued to us over the last 4 or 5 thousands years? Even in a secular moral sense. It’s easy to find fault. But if you have some pearls of wisdom why not share them, instead of pick through the piles of shells you shucked to get those pearls. Look at the pearls and embrace them. That’s God’s lesson of embracing the light!

God’s Will is:

Lk:6:37-38
37 Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven.
38 Give: and it shall be given to you: good measure and pressed down and shaken together and running over shall they give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you shall mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.

Lk:10:25-28
25 And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life?
26 But he said to him: What is written in the law? How readest thou?
27 He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said to him: Thou hast answered right. This do: and thou shalt live.

Lk:9:46-48
46 And there entered a thought into them, which of them should be greater.
47 But Jesus seeing the thoughts of their hearts, took a child and set him by him,
48 And said to them: Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me; and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me. For he that is the lesser among you all, he is the greater.

Mk:10:43-44
43 But it is not so among you: but whosoever will be greater shall be your minister.
44 And whosoever will be first among you shall be the servant of all.

Mk:12:28-34
28 And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all.
29 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said to him: Well, Master, thou hast said in truth that there is one God and there is no other besides him.
33 And that he should be loved with the whole heart and with the whole understanding and with the whole soul and with the whole strength. And to love one's neighbour as one's self is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices.
34 And Jesus seeing that he had answered wisely, said to him: Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jn:13:31-35
31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said: Now is the Son of man glorified; and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him in himself: and immediately will he glorify him.
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You shall seek me. And as I said to the Jews: Whither I go you cannot come; so I say to you now.
34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Jn:6:40
40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.

Dt:5:6-21
6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ass, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.
15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.
16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 And thou shalt not steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife: nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Dt:6:4-9
4 Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.
5 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength.
6 And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart:
7 And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising.
8 And thou shalt bind them as a sign on thy hand, and they shall be and shall move between thy eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them in the entry, and on the doors of thy house.

Dt:7:9
9 And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations:

Dt:10:18-19
18 He doth judgment to the fatherless and the widow, loveth the stranger, and giveth him food and raiment.
19 And do you therefore love strangers, because you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Dt:11:18-20
18 Lay up these words in your hearts and minds, and hang them for a sign on your hands, and place them between your eyes.
19 Teach your children that they meditate on them, when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest on the way, and when thou liest down and risest up.
20 Thou shalt write them upon the posts and the doors of thy house:

Dt:30:6
6 The Lord thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed: that thou mayst love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayst live.

Dt:30:10-16
10 Yet so if thou hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and keep his precepts and ceremonies, which are written in this law: and return to the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.
11 This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:
12 Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?
13 Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.
15 Consider that I have set before thee this day life and good, and on the other hand death and evil:
16 That thou mayst love the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways, and keep his commandments and ceremonies and judgments, and bless thee in the land, which thou shalt go in to possess.

Jos:22:5
5 Yet so that you observe attentively, and in work fulfil the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you: that you love the Lord your God, and walk in all his ways, and keep all his commandments, and cleave to him, and serve him with all your heart, and with all your soul. (DRV)

Is:61: 1-3
1 The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord hath anointed me: he hath sent me to preach to the meek, to heal the contrite of heart, and to preach a release to the captives, and deliverance to them that are shut up.
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God: to comfort all that mourn:
3 To appoint to the mourners of Sion, and to give them a crown for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, a garment of praise for the spirit of grief: and they shall be called in it the mighty ones of justice, the planting of the Lord to glorify him.

Is:61: 8
8 For I am the Lord that love judgment, and hate robbery in a holocaust: and I will make their work in truth, and I will make a perpetual covenant with them.

Is:61: 10
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, and my soul shall be joyful in my God: for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation: and with the robe of justice he hath covered me, as a bridegroom decked with a crown, and as a bride adorned with her jewels.

Mi:6: 8
8 I will shew thee, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requireth of thee: Verily to do judgment, and to love mercy, and to walk solicitous with thy God.
(DRV)

Zec:8: 16-17
16 These then are the things, which you shall do: Speak ye truth every one to his neighbour; judge ye truth and judgment of peace in your gates.
17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his friend: and love not a false oath: for all these are the things that I hate, saith the Lord.

Am:5:14-15
14 Seek ye good, and not evil, that you may live: and the Lord the God of hosts will be with you, as you have said.
15 Hate evil, and love good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be the Lord the God of hosts may have mercy on the remnant of Joseph.

NOW, LET'S JUST DO IT!