Free Will

[POI]

Varying viewpoints and positions exist, when discussing the topic of free will. Recently, The Tanager and I had a brief discussion regarding this topic. Rather than going over the 'whole' of what the term "free will" (may or may not encompass), I instead wanted to hyper-focus on one particular aspect.

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines free will as: "Free will is the capacity for agents to make choices uncoerced by external forces, allowing them to be the authors of their own actions and hold moral responsibility."

The same source views coercion as: "Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act against their will through the use of threats, intimidation, physical force, or psychological pressure. It is used to compel compliance, such as obtaining a confession, forcing a contract signature, or controlling behavior, often involving threats of harm or misuse of authority."

For debate: Does the Bible present any level of coercion? Is this why so many folks apply Pascal's wager, in that they are in the Jesus-camp (just-in-case)? Does the Bible god violate free will, in this aspect, in any capacity?

When parsing this scenario out, let's apply a modern example. A group of Christian missionaries travel abroad to a remote area where many/most/all may not have heard of a Jesus. The Christian missionaries present and preach the words of Jesus to these uninformed folks. "Project conversion" is not going as well as hoped. One of the Christian missionaries, in a last-ditch effort of conversion, decides to quote Mark 16, and tells them -- "the ones who believe in Jesus will be saved, and the ones that do not believe will instead be condemned."

The Bible also speaks about negative outcomes for disbelief in other areas of the Bible too. We can cross those paths as needed.

[POI]

A yes or no answer would have been more sincinct POI. Would it be correct POI, that you are not arguing against us having will?

No. I'm not arguing (whether or not) we truly have free will. But Christians assume that we do. And if we do, then the "Christian version" of free will is merely a coercive binary proposition of (Jesus or fire).

[William]

A yes or no answer would have been more sincinct POI. Would it be correct POI, that you are not arguing against us having will?

No. I'm not arguing (whether or not) we truly have free will. But Christians assume that we do. And if we do, then the "Christian version" of free will is merely a coercive binary proposition of (Jesus or fire).

Thanks for your thoughtful reply here POI.

What I am getting at is - if we dropped the word "free" and just went with "will" - that you are arguing against free will - re Christian thinking, but not necessarily arguing against humans having will?

[POI]

[Replying to William in post #82]

If we do not actually have true 'free will', and merely only limited choice(s), then can skeptics really fault Christianity in the first place? Yes, and I explained why. My initial post was intended to be addressed to The Tanager. And in his case, he is up against the current of a raging river with no paddle. I have demonstrated that god's presented option(s)-list is even more (binary, coercive, and/or restrictive) than most other seemingly compulsory or extremely limited coercive proposition(s).

[William]

[Replying to William in post #82]

If we do not actually have true 'free will', and merely only limited choice(s), then can skeptics really fault Christianity in the first place? Yes, and I explained why. My initial post was intended to be addressed to The Tanager. And in his case, he is up against the current of a raging river with no paddle. I have demonstrated that god's presented option(s)-list is even more (binary, coercive, and/or restrictive) than most other seemingly compulsory or extremely limited coercive proposition(s).

Yes - I understand your reasoning here. The thread on that has ended.

My question is more of an afterthought probing at what you think about human will. Do we have it or not (in the sense of your hinting that we do not really have a free will) but am asking whether your thinking on that has to do with the will in general.

[POI]

[Replying to William in post #82]

If we do not actually have true 'free will', and merely only limited choice(s), then can skeptics really fault Christianity in the first place? Yes, and I explained why. My initial post was intended to be addressed to The Tanager. And in his case, he is up against the current of a raging river with no paddle. I have demonstrated that god's presented option(s)-list is even more (binary, coercive, and/or restrictive) than most other seemingly compulsory or extremely limited coercive proposition(s).

Yes - I understand your reasoning here. The thread on that has ended.

My question is more of an afterthought probing at what you think about human will. Do we have it or not (in the sense of your hinting that we do not really have a free will) but am asking whether your thinking on that has to do with the will in general.

I guess I could make a case for both William. If someone had a gun to my head, I'd probably go with us not having 'free will'? Our brain makes countless decisions without any choice at all. Maybe the few choices we feel we have, we truly don't?.?.?.?.?.

I know you already know about this, as you already addressed the term 'libertarian free will' to another in this thread. I tried to stay clear, as this topic isn't really about any of that.... But, food for thought, here is a video I stumbled across, many moons ago, for others to ponder:

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #85]

Yes - so I am happy to discuss this idea with you - here in this thread (since it is still relative to the subject) or we could make another thread...what say you?

I will check the contents of the vid asap (I am working on something else at the mo) and get back to you either here - or if you want - in a new thread...

[William]

Okay I have watched the video.

I think that if we are to discuss this concept together, we ought create another thread.

I also think that because we both generally agree with the idea that the Crash Course Philosophy guy talks about in the video, we ought do this in the chat section of the forum, because while we will no doubt get into nitty gritty stuff about this (what it implies et al) we will also have differences on how we define this overall - me being the theist and you being the non-theist - it will likely create debate but we can agree to keep it discussionary for the sake of acknowledging we are still approaching this from a shared understanding or agreement about the fundamentals the video is showing...which is to say - we are not starting off from two irreconcilable positions where debate only leads to loop-de-loop.

So, if you are keen on discussing the finer points, let's get to it, what do you say?

Discussing Determinism

[POI]

[Replying to William in post #87]

I appreciate the creation of the thread. When I posted the video, it was more for others to get (up to speed), namely Christians, who are under the impression that "libertarian free will" is very much a thing. As I've told you prior, my objective is to debate believers, as such 'heated' exchange(s) within my own family and friend circle might invite too much discord. Debating here, with believers, who take the opposite view of myself, will lead to no hard feelings, as anonymity remains; and will remain here for any possible onlookers, on the fence about Christianity, to read and ponder.

Further, in all honesty, I'd likely get bored, as I would feel I'm in an echo chamber, agreeing, or partially agreeing, on point after point. I like to exchange with folks who hold the polar opposite position in religion and politics. If it's all the same, I appreciate the effort, but I will likely not engage this created thread.

Thank you tho!

[William]

However you are determined, that is the path you will take.

[wannabe]

Choice 1 - go to hell
Choice 2 - go to heaven
Choice 3 - give no recognition that Choices 1 and 2 do exist.
If you choose 1, 2, or 3 you are making a choice.
Question: is this decision out of your control or is it of your will to hold the position of 1, 2, or 3.

If you choose 1, there is no coercion that makes sense.
If you choose 2, none who have chosen 2 will admit to coercion, because it is only the love of righteousness that leads to heaven.
If you chose 3 ,no coercion exists otherwise you would choose 2 against your will.
Or is there a 4th I did not cover.

If you have no will of your own, you are a puppet to society, because you need 'will' to make a decision
For your will is your desire, or your desire is your choice ( you choose this freely).

If you choose 2, only through fear of hell, you won't make it to heaven anyway.
If you truly believe in God you would have no concerns regarding coercion.