Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Mae von H]

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

Absolutely true!! What a man believes is the product of what he chose to feed himself. In other matters a man can choose to believe xyz, wanting xyz to be true and so feeding himself anything that supports that preferred position. The question will boil down to whether he wanted the truth, cost what it may, or he preferred something more appealing. That is the choice a man makes.

The conversion of CS Lewis is interesting in this regard. He poked numerous holes in Christianity but his love of truth poked numerous holes in his position. Eventually he had to reluctantly admit his atheist position was full of more holes. He called himself “the most dejected convert in England.” He became a believer and never looked back.

[benchwarmer]

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

Absolutely true!! What a man believes is the product of what he chose to feed himself. In other matters a man can choose to believe xyz, wanting xyz to be true and so feeding himself anything that supports that preferred position. The question will boil down to whether he wanted the truth, cost what it may, or he preferred something more appealing. That is the choice a man makes,

Sorry, this is baloney and we've been over this before. Our beliefs are driven by what convinces us. We can't simply choose what to believe.

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

[Mae von H]

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

Absolutely true!! What a man believes is the product of what he chose to feed himself. In other matters a man can choose to believe xyz, wanting xyz to be true and so feeding himself anything that supports that preferred position. The question will boil down to whether he wanted the truth, cost what it may, or he preferred something more appealing. That is the choice a man makes,

Sorry, this is baloney and we've been over this before. Our beliefs are driven by what convinces us. We can't simply choose what to believe.

You guys can’t answer with respect can you? The fruit of not acknowledging a moral Law Giver.

Incorrect. You choose what you read or hear to convince you if what you chose to believe. That’s where the choice lies. Feed your mind lies and a man will believe lies. However, desire truth and look at all arguments with that desire and a man will have chosen to believe the truth.

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

There is no evidence of such.

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

If you think the LAW of gravity is an option to believe, what other options are there.

Basically you don’t get it. One doesn’t “believe” in gravity or the air or the sun or moon. Those aren’t matters to choose to believe or not. But one does choose to believe the used car salesman, the doctor, the government and many other choices. You need to recognize the difference. A man decides to believe the officials and lets himself be injected. A man believes the salesman and buys the car.

A wise man informs himself BEFORE he decides to believe. That informing himself is where he examines the evidence, a good man is without prejudice, to find the truth. After examining the evidence he either believes it he doesn’t but he chose that route. It didn’t just happen to him passively.

[POI]

Again with the nuh-uh defense. I have repeatedly demonstrated why these two terms are synonymous. Here it is, yet again:

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

If righteousness is given through faith, how can faith mean righteousness?

Jesus is 'righteous'. If you have faith in the 'righteous', which is Jesus, then you are saved. The answer is then B). You stated the answer is F), which is false here for you. According to Romans 3, the only truly 'righteous' one is Jesus. You become 'righteous' through your faith in him.

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

Then I guess this means you can choose to believe in the Easter bunny? Please choose to believe in the Easter bunny for 24 hours. I implore you to try. If it's a choice, you can do so... But I bet you that you cannot Which then means you could not choose to believe the Easter bunny exists, even if you tried your hardest.

Righteousness is not about knowing, but about understanding. Even a small baby can have the right understanding, even if he doesn't know everything. And probably no human ever knows everything anyway.

It's about having faith in Jesus. If an infant dies, they do not yet know of Jesus. I know this because I did not know of Jesus until I was told later. Does Jesus then offer option < A) (un)conditional grace > for some? If so, then faith is not a requirement. Even though Romans 3 states it is.

[Mae von H]

If an infant dies, they do not yet know of Jesus. I know this because I did not know of Jesus until I was told later. Does Jesus then offer option < A) (un)conditional grace > for some? If so, then faith is not a requirement. Even though Romans 3 states it is.

Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is filled with people like those little ones. The one thing most people find attractive in children is their moral innocence. Jesus agrees. So no worries, the little children and those like them are there.

[POI]

Mae If I had a computer I’d go back and copy the response you gave as to why students fail exams. You seem to forget, conveniently. There were two possibilities, neither of which was “forgot.”

POI You keep beating this dead horse, for which you are clearly mistaken about. Get over it and "move on", as you would say. When students get answers wrong, for whatever reason(s), of course this also includes the option(s) you offer.

Mae Relationship is not works. Is that what your relationships consist of? Works? That’s it?

POI As I told you from the jump, a single word or phrase can encompass an entire story. Relationships require work. Good work, hard work, other work.

Mae ]No, Jesus is the one we KNOW of. Every human who was ever born we cannot possibly know. Why is this difficult?

POI It is not difficult. You are back peddling. NO ONE can love ALL humans above themselves. Only Jesus can. Hence, the criterion is not possible. Care to address the logical conundrum now A) or E)?

[POI]

If an infant dies, they do not yet know of Jesus. I know this because I did not know of Jesus until I was told later. Does Jesus then offer option < A) (un)conditional grace > for some? If so, then faith is not a requirement. Even though Romans 3 states it is.

Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is filled with people like those little ones. The one thing most people find attractive in children is their moral innocence. Jesus agrees. So no worries, the little children and those like them are there.

I would respond here, but you have already backed yourself into a completely different corner.

[benchwarmer]

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

Absolutely true!! What a man believes is the product of what he chose to feed himself. In other matters a man can choose to believe xyz, wanting xyz to be true and so feeding himself anything that supports that preferred position. The question will boil down to whether he wanted the truth, cost what it may, or he preferred something more appealing. That is the choice a man makes,

Sorry, this is baloney and we've been over this before. Our beliefs are driven by what convinces us. We can't simply choose what to believe.

You guys can’t answer with respect can you? The fruit of not acknowledging a moral Law Giver.

What's not respectful about pointing out a concept that is baloney? I didn't say you are baloney or call you names or otherwise insult you. I'm sorry that you feel attacked when your claims are shown to be false.

Likewise, you can't seem to respond without preaching or just simply making unsupported claims.

Incorrect. You choose what you read or hear to convince you if what you chose to believe.

I think readers can tell who is incorrect here.

I didn't read about gravity before forming beliefs about it. Your argument is illogical and shown to be false.

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

There is no evidence of such.

There is no evidence of such what?

Face it, this simple experiment, which you can choose to replace the belief in question with anything, proves the idea that we choose our beliefs is false. You can wave your hands and claim it's only about what we have chosen to read/hear about, but readers can try the experiment themselves and see if it works.

Remember, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm simply making a case to readers of this debate.

You've been given this information before and continue to make false claims. Guess what readers are probably thinking when they see that happen?

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

If you think the LAW of gravity is an option to believe, what other options are there.

You tell me. You are the one claiming we choose our beliefs. Apparently I can choose to believe gravity won't make me hit the floor if I trip over my shoes.

Basically you don’t get it. One doesn’t “believe” in gravity

Let's try a thought experiment and let readers decide.

One day you pass out. Some time later you wake up in what appears to be your bed at home. What do you KNOW will happen (since you are claiming a LAW about gravity) when you lift your covers and get out of bed? Assume your body is functioning fine as normal and all you are doing is trying to get out of bed and stand up. Do you push against gravity and stand up?

I'll let you answer since you KNOW what's going to happen. Don't worry, you won't pass out again, this isn't about your health.

A wise man informs himself BEFORE he decides to believe. That informing himself is where he examines the evidence, a good man is without prejudice, to find the truth. After examining the evidence he either believes it he doesn’t but he chose that route. It didn’t just happen to him passively.

Let's let readers decide what actually happens in their lives. Did they choose to inform themselves of everything they currently believe? Everything?

Or is it that we form beliefs based on our experiences and all input (whether we choose to get that input or not). I think readers will likely agree that we believe what we are convinced by and that's it.

If my neighbor drives by in a green van every day for 2 years, I'm likely to form the belief that my neighbor owns (or at least is given permission) to drive a green van. I didn't choose for him to drive by me. I simply observed it happen. Your logic is that I have to choose to see my neighbor drive by to form any belief about his van.

[Mae von H]

Mae Relationship is not works. Is that what your relationships consist of? Works? That’s it?

POI As I told you from the jump, a single word or phrase can encompass an entire story. Relationships require work. Good work, hard work, other work.

My relationship with God requires no work nor works. Since I am deeply experienced in this and you aren’t, we need to go with my take.

Mae ]No, Jesus is the one we KNOW of. Every human who was ever born we cannot possibly know. Why is this difficult?

POI It is not difficult. You are back peddling. NO ONE can love ALL humans above themselves. Only Jesus can. Hence, the criterion is not possible. Care to address the logical conundrum now A) or E)?

Thats NOT what he said. He says to love others as much as you love yourselves, not above the self. You do change the scripture don’t you?

[Mae von H]

If an infant dies, they do not yet know of Jesus. I know this because I did not know of Jesus until I was told later. Does Jesus then offer option < A) (un)conditional grace > for some? If so, then faith is not a requirement. Even though Romans 3 states it is.

Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is filled with people like those little ones. The one thing most people find attractive in children is their moral innocence. Jesus agrees. So no worries, the little children and those like them are there.

I would respond here, but you have already backed yourself into a completely different corner.

IOW you don’t like the truth and so make up something to accuse me of rather than face an answer that defeats your accusation. You want God to be unjust. When I tell you that the little children go to Heaven because Jesus said so, you don’t like that. Instead of being glad for them, you lob an accusation against me. Didn’t like that answer did you?