Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

By your doctrine, not by the Bible.

Incorrect, by Romans 3 and 4, righteousness is synonymous with faith. Which would then mean the answer is B). But you have already rejected this answer.

For example the scriptures I gave are very clear. Why would a well meaning Christian not accept the scriptures? I don't think there is any god reason fro to reject them, if one is a Christian.

Again, this is not what I said. If an earnest and well-meaning follower reads the Bible, but believes and follows a path to salvation which differs from the intended path, does Jesus offer some type of grace or pardon for such folks anyways? Meaning, he offers an "A" for effort? Or answer A)?

Unfortunately I don't know all, that is why I can't tell how exactly.

This is a very convenient answer, being the obvious answer, for which you choose not to use, would refute your beliefs. Still-borns and infants cannot achieve 'righteousness' logically.

[POI]

Mae You didn’t include those possibilities.

POI Yes, I included all possibilities.

Mae Truthfully, I have no idea if anyone lived their lives according to Gods law in all of human history. How does anyone know this? Move on.

POI Convenient you tell me to "move on". I think we both know your given criteria is not possible by humans. And now you do not want to admit that option A) or option E) is/are the next logical choices for consideration.

Mae We have no way of knowing the moral behavior of everyone. Move on.

POI Mark 16:16 already states belief is a requirement. You also stated we must love all others like we do ourselves. If you want me to move on, we have nothing more to discuss, other than for you to reconcile that you have logical problems in your believed upon doctrine.

[Mae von H]

Mae You didn’t include those possibilities.

POI Yes, I included all possibilities.

No, the possibility that students didn’t study or forgot you did not include.

Mae Truthfully, I have no idea if anyone lived their lives according to Gods law in all of human history. How does anyone know this? Move on.

POI Convenient you tell me to "move on". I think we both know your given criteria is not possible by humans. And now you do not want to admit that option A) or option E) is/are the next logical choices for consideration.

No we don’t know. Again you limit the possible answers. How about at least adding f) none of the above as stated?

Mae We have no way of knowing the moral behavior of everyone. Move on.

POI Mark 16:16 already states belief is a requirement. You also stated we must love all others like we do ourselves. If you want me to move on, we have nothing more to discuss, other than for you to reconcile that you have logical problems in your believed upon doctrine.

Anyone keeping God’s moral code not only believes, but knows and walks with God. “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” There is no possibility whatsoever of keeping His code without knowing Him. No way.

[POI]

Mae No, the possibility that students didn’t study or forgot you did not include.

POI A student getting an answer wrong, for whatever reason(s), includes these already.

Mae No we don’t know. Again you limit the possible answers. How about at least adding f) none of the above as stated?

POI I asked if the criteria required that one loves all as much or more than oneself. You stated yes, and also stated, and I agree, only this Jesus fellow could possibly love all humans as much or more than one loves oneself. I've already included any/all possible answers. And so far, you are either going to have to pick A) or E).

A) (un)conditional grace
B) belief/faith
C) works
D) both B) and C)
E) no one goes because no one is worthy
F) Other option(s) which do not already include the above

B) and C) already encompass any/all options you have provided. Why? Remember the story I gave you about "jealousy"? Just because your answer is long, does not mean it still cannot be paired down to a word or a phrase. Nothing you have provided goes outside of the scope of the provided options/answers.

Mae Anyone keeping God’s moral code not only believes, but knows and walks with God. “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” There is no possibility whatsoever of keeping His code without knowing Him. No way.

POI Even if this were true, there is no possible way to keep the given code you provided, no way. So, is the answer A) or E)?

[Mae von H]

Mae No, the possibility that students didn’t study or forgot you did not include.

POI A student getting an answer wrong, for whatever reason(s), includes these already.

No, that choices you gave as to why students failed a test DID NOT include forgetting or not learning. Those choices were not available.

Mae No we don’t know. Again you limit the possible answers. How about at least adding f) none of the above as stated?

POI I asked if the criteria required that one loves all as much or more than oneself. You stated yes, and also stated, and I agree, only this Jesus fellow could possibly love all humans as much or more than one loves oneself. I've already included any/all possible answers. And so far, you are either going to have to pick A) or E).

A) (un)conditional grace
B) belief/faith
C) works
D) both B) and C)
E) no one goes because no one is worthy
F) Other option(s) which do not already include the above

B) and C) already encompass any/all options you have provided. Why? Remember the story I gave you about "jealousy"? Just because your answer is long, does not mean it still cannot be paired down to a word or a phrase. Nothing you have provided goes outside of the scope of the provided options/answers.

You left out relationship. That is the answer that is not covered above. Jesus will say to many *go away, I never knew you“ which means they had NO RELATIONSHIP.


As you see I can definately give short answers and do more often that some unnamed atheists who write reams each time.

Mae Anyone keeping God’s moral code not only believes, but knows and walks with God. “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” There is no possibility whatsoever of keeping His code without knowing Him. No way.

POI Even if this were true, there is no possible way to keep the given code you provided, no way. So, is the answer A) or E)?

I do not know if no one has kept the moral code. Small children go to Heaven and certainly babies so maybe they kept it their whole lives. What difference does it make if someone did? The question is if you and I did. That is really the only question we need to be concerned with. The answer is some of the above in combination with NONE OF THE ABOVE which is RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD ALMIGHTY. That is the choice you are missing and it comes with a lot of requirements. There is no relationship without much giving or surrendering on our side, so I can see why this is left out. It is the option that is not free and in fact, very expensive.

[1213]

Incorrect, by Romans 3 and 4, righteousness is synonymous with faith.

It is not said there that righteous = faith.

If an earnest and well-meaning follower reads the Bible, but believes and follows a path to salvation which differs from the intended path, does Jesus offer some type of grace or pardon for such folks anyways?

Pardon is for those who are righteous. If person follows wrong path, and doesn't care what is said in the Bible, I don't see how he could be counted righteous. But, I leave this to God's hands. I believe He is incredibly merciful.

Still-borns and infants cannot achieve 'righteousness' logically.

I cant' tell who is righteous truly, because I don't read the minds of people. But I don't see any reason why babies could not be counted righteous by God.

[POI]

Mae No, that choices you gave as to why students failed a test DID NOT include forgetting or not learning. Those choices were not available.

POI You either do not get it, or are deliberately acting like you do not know what I'm saying. Either way, I'll let the readers decide. option a) encompasses the ones you provide as well.

Mae You left out relationship. That is the answer that is not covered above.

POI I most certainly did cover 'relationship'. Then the answer is C) works.

Mae I do not know if no one has kept the moral code.

POI You are back peddling. I asked if anyone has the capacity to love all as much, or more than themselves. You stated only Jesus. I agree. The criterion is impossible to follow. You are now stuck with A) or E). You do not want to address these because it becomes a very large logical stumbling block.

[POI]

It is not said there that righteous = faith.

Again with the nuh-uh defense. I have repeatedly demonstrated why these two terms are synonymous. Here it is, yet again:

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Pardon is for those who are righteous.

Then the answer is B).

If person follows wrong path, and doesn't care what is said in the Bible, I don't see how he could be counted righteous. But, I leave this to God's hands. I believe He is incredibly merciful.

Belief is not a choice though. I cannot 'will' myself into believing it actually happened. No matter how many times I read the book of claims. God is going to condemn the ones, for a trait we cannot control, belief?

I cant' tell who is righteous truly, because I don't read the minds of people. But I don't see any reason why babies could not be counted righteous by God.

I doubt any newborns know Jesus? Heck, I had to be introduced to the concept entirely when I was little. Before then, did not know him at all. I then believed for decades, and now no longer believe. I guess this means if I had died as a small child, I would be condemned????

[1213]

Again with the nuh-uh defense. I have repeatedly demonstrated why these two terms are synonymous. Here it is, yet again:

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

If righteousness is given through faith, how can faith mean righteousness?

I have understood that faith is only like a fruit of righteous person. If person is righteous, it comes visible in his actions and for example in that he is faithful/loyal to God. When person shows that loyalty, he can be counted righteous, because the action shows the person has the wisdom of the just.

God is going to condemn the ones, for a trait we cannot control, belief?

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

I doubt any newborns know Jesus? Heck, I had to be introduced to the concept entirely when I was little. Before then, did not know him at all. I then believed for decades, and now no longer believe. I guess this means if I had died as a small child, I would be condemned????

Righteousness is not about knowing, but about understanding. Even a small baby can have the right understanding, even if he doesn't know everything. And probably no human ever knows everything anyway.

[Mae von H]

Mae No, that choices you gave as to why students failed a test DID NOT include forgetting or not learning. Those choices were not available.

POI You either do not get it, or are deliberately acting like you do not know what I'm saying. Either way, I'll let the readers decide. option a) encompasses the ones you provide as well.

If I had a computer I’d go back and copy the response you gave as to why students fail exams. You seem to forget, conveniently. There were two possibilities, neither of which was “forgot.”

Mae You left out relationship. That is the answer that is not covered above.

POI I most certainly did cover 'relationship'. Then the answer is C) works.

Relationship is not works. Is that what your relationships consist of? Works? That’s it?

Mae I do not know if no one has kept the moral code.

POI You are back peddling. I asked if anyone has the capacity to love all as much, or more than themselves. You stated only Jesus. I agree. The criterion is impossible to follow. You are now stuck with A) or E). You do not want to address these because it becomes a very large logical stumbling block.

No, Jesus is the one we KNOW of. Every human who was ever born we cannot possibly know. Why is this difficult?