Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[Piper Plexed]

We should probably take this somewhere else, we haven't really been directly discussing Santa for a while...

GOOD CALL!!!!! I was just thinking the same thing

[Arch]

Let me explain: God does not blackmail anyone. The purpose of humanity is not to praise and worship Him.

When asked
Why pray ..?



Your answer

Because God wants us to
We pray because God has declared it a good and righteous thing to do.
Prayer does not influence God's decision on anything.

In your own answers you have said prayer yeilds no answer, it is simply done because;
1. God wants you to
2. God said it was righteous and good
Also you stated that;
Prayer does NOT influence God's decision on ANYTHING

Since this is the case in your own words, what answers are you receiving from God. In YOUR own answer you stated that your prayers influence nothing. So if their are no changes made as a result of your prayers how than can you measure god answering your prayers.

Your answer must be He talks to me since that was the criteria you used as to why, SANTA and other people's religions GODS are not verified.

If you pray to (in this case) Santa, Santa does not answer. He does not talk to anyone. Nobody knows him. God, on the otherhand, will answer every single person that sincerely prays in the name of Christ, as stated in my other post.

If in fact YOUR god talks to you you should be able to answer a few questions concerning that;
1. What did he sound like?
2. What exactly did he say?
3. Did anyone else other than those of YOUR own religious sects hear him talking to you?
4. In fact did anyone else in your religious sect HEAR him talking to you?
5. Did you record him?
6. Are you now a prophet?
7. What answers did he give you? Since you were talking to God why didn't you ask for the cure to Aids or Cancer or Children Diabetes?

If you can't answer these questions then I would humbly have to submit that YOUR GOD hasn't TALKED to you either.

Even in the bible, since the time of Adam, has anyone ever actually TALKED to GOD? NO They talked to angels sent by God, mere representatives. In fact those "prophet" can't even attest to speaking first hand to GOD or seeing him, actually most of them called the angels GOD when they saw them.

Let me explain: God does not blackmail anyone. The purpose of humanity is not to praise and worship Him.

If praying is not to get favors or wanted atributes from god, nor does it change anything. Then you are just praying simply because GOD wants you to. Thus the only purpose of prayer is to please GOD. However if you do not please GOD in this manner you will go to hell. How is this not blackmail?

God's wants you to pray to praise him, you pray to praise him, he requires you to pray..ergo you are required to praise god. If you do not praise GOD, which serves no other purpose than to please him, then you will goto hell.

Is your God that sick, that he is willing to send people to eternal damnation just because they won't engage in a futile act that does nothing but pleases him? Does he need attention that bad?

I think truly you don't know why you pray and that you are just not humble enough to admit it

The truth is you pray because you were told to. JUST LIKE YOU SAID
GOD WANTS US TO

Anyone that knows God and His great mercy will worship and praise and obey Him, not because of a threat... but because He is overwhelmingly and incomprehensibly GREAT!

If this is true then what would be the purpose of hell. Does not Satan KNOW god? I would say according to christian mythology Satan knows god better better than anyone else. Yet he does not worship or praise him!!!!

If this was true then why is god playiNg games, all he needs to do is come and show himself, let everyone get to know him personally and we would all be praising him and worshipping him.

Reading about someone isn't knowing them. You dont even know your god's NAME...lol

Also, God is a verified deity.

How exactly was your god verfied? Can you answer these questions?

1.By what scientific measure was the existence of YOUR god verfied over the existence of OTHER gods?
this requires proof that is above and beyond proofs that
are presented for the existence of other gods, ie Santa, Allah, Sheba.
2. When was the scientific measurement done and by whom and under what conditions?
3. What were the official findings?
4. Where the findings undisputed?
5. Where there any verifiable eyewitnesses?
These eyewitnesses would have to be available at the time of the study. Also eyewitnesses would be those who have actually seen god or can provide verifiable proof of his existence and then proof that he is the christian god if he does exist. He could be Santa or Allah you know!!

Even if the prophets of the bible were here today, they wouldn't be eyewitnesses because they never saw god first hand nor did they talk to him directly.

Futhermore, I will even assert that if one of the prophets were here now to speak for themselves no somewhat rational christian , no matter how devout to their doctrines, would believe that they were actually prophets.

Some christians wouldn't even believe if they were able to do miracles right in front of them, because if that was the criteria used David Copperfield could actually be the David of the bible.

I know you won't answer these questions directly because the fact is you can't. All you can do is come up with some rationalization as to why you can't answer them directly.

[chrispalasz]

Right! Back on track:

Are you trying to suggest by this that Santa does not exist?

I know that he exists:

1 Presents appear at Christmas - who brings them if not Santa?

Your mom and your dad or your friends bring them. You see you mom and your dad and your friends, on Christmas, physically bring them - so it is fact that we know Santa does not bring presents on Christmas. This is true all through-out the world. We would either run into people who are the ones that put the presents out and confess it, or we would run into ones who catch other people doing it and not Santa.

2 My parents told me that he exists ergo he exists

If, at an adult age, your parents will not confess that they lied and proceed to tell you the truth - let me talk to your parents.

3 There are many references to Santa in books so he must exist.

Sure. These books can be found in the fiction section of the library, where as God has his own section that is not called fiction.

4 Just because Santa chooses not to show himself to you does not mean he does not exist

Fine. So? This reason is not needed to show that he does not exist.

5 Santa is benevolent - just because he does not give presents to those in the third world and allows people to starve at Christmas does not disprove his existence

Assuming we are saying that Santa is a man, he cannot be benevolent unless he has faith in God and has accepted Jesus Christ to be his personal savior. If he were a man, he would be a sinner... but in order to be a man he would first have to exist. He clearly does not, as shown in many ways throught the answering of these false statements.

6 To ensure he is able to deliver all of the presents in just one night there are really three Santas and these three Santas are both the same Santa and different Santas all at the same time

This statement is completely worthless. It is simply making fun of the Trinity, and is not useful in discussion. It should not have been included in this reasoning. Not only that, but it obviously does not directly correlate to God, since Christians do not argue that God is able to be so many places and do so many things because he splits into 3. God being able to do anything anywhere at multiple locations at the same kind is because of the 3 O's. He is Omnicient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent. These are not results of being the Trinity. They are completely different aspects altogether.

7 No I have never seen Santa - what a silly question - I do not need to see Santa I simply have faith in his existence

For all Christians, faith in God equates to the knowledge of God in 100% of the circumstances. Since in the case of God, knowledge and faith can be used interchangably - I will assume that you are trying to correlate your belief in Santa with a Christian's belief in God and do the same. So in the case of Santa, you cannot simply have a knowledge of his existance because his existance can be proven false as I have explained in the first set of statments.

8 Please do not try to persuade me of his nonexistence by using scientific arguments - Santa is Santa and is beyond your understanding...

This is not a Christian argument that is used so I don't know why it's even posted. What do you call the existance of this very discussion forum? Look. In big black bold letters it's called "Debating Christianity & Religion." Christians that come to this forum are saying the exact opposite: "Go ahead, use scientific arguments. We will try to discuss them with you in a logical manner and help you to understand why we are so confident that there is a God and that He is Jesus Christ.

All of these statments regarding how somebody knows that Santa exists are completely worthless and ridiculous. These arguments are weak and do not equal a Christian's belief reasoning.

[Lucifer]

For all Christians, faith in God equates to the knowledge of God in 100% of the circumstances. Since in the case of God, knowledge and faith can be used interchangably - I will assume that you are trying to correlate your belief in Santa with a Christian's belief in God and do the same. So in the case of Santa, you cannot simply have a knowledge of his existance because his existance can be proven false as I have explained in the first set of statments.

And using that statement, God's existence, like Santa's existence can be proven false, ie disproven, from other conflicts. I'm not saying it is, however, it is subjected to the same possibility. However, some people would rather not consider it because they are so sure (I might even add too sure) that God exists. Please be careful how you use faith and knowledge--knowledge is something you know for sure, and belief is something you think you know--but we're only human, so the things we think about are imperfect. You said it's knowledge of things not seen (in another post), but if you can't see it, much less observe it or perceive it, it's not something we can know. It could exist, but we, as people don't know that personally.

This is not a Christian argument that is used so I don't know why it's even posted. What do you call the existance of this very discussion forum? Look. In big black bold letters it's called "Debating Christianity & Religion." Christians that come to this forum are saying the exact opposite: "Go ahead, use scientific arguments. We will try to discuss them with you in a logical manner and help you to understand why we are so confident that there is a God and that He is Jesus Christ.

All of these statments regarding how somebody knows that Santa exists are completely worthless and ridiculous. These arguments are weak and do not equal a Christian's belief reasoning.

Religion is a belief. People can believe in Santa, and apparently, we're talking about that. Read the topic. "Believe", "Christians". Religious words, aren't those?

[chrispalasz]

Please be careful how you use faith and knowledge--knowledge is something you know for sure

I am being careful. I am carefully choosing the word "knowledge" in saying that I know Jesus Christ is God. I know that is true. I am positive. There isn't a fact on this planet that I am more sure about. It is a knowledge.

If you don't believe me that I have this knowledge - you don't need to explain to me what a belief is because I already know. Instead, as sad as it is - I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree. The debate on this knowledge issue will always come to a halt until you and any other non-believer decides to sincerely check it out for yourselves.

You said it's knowledge of things not seen (in another post), but if you can't see it, much less observe it or perceive it, it's not something we can know. It could exist, but we, as people don't know that personally.

Well that's why there's a different word for it, but I'm showing that the idea is the same. Knowledge is of things seen. Faith is knowledge, but of things not seen. They're exactly the same. Just like forgiveness and mercy. Forgiveness is when you forgive somebody inside, in your heart. Mercy is putting to action the forgiveness that is in your heart.

Well when using the broad term of "religion", you must use "believe" because there are not multiple correct answers. The only correct answer is in Christianity. So if we speak specifically, which we have been, we can use knowledge. Otherwise belief is the accurate word.

I do not mean to sound arrogant, I am only speaking from what i know. If you want, I can explain why Christianity being the only correct answer is not arrogant.

[Lucifer]

A lot of the things you say do need to be explained. You just repeat what you said before without giving any explanation after I just refuted them. Don't assume me to know this; I don't have the same perspective as you do. And by explain, I don't mean telling the story--you have to explain why. So far, you've avoided that. All you could tell me is God exists, and it doesn't matter what anyone says, he exists. Apparently, I don't see the reasoning behind that.

[nikolayevich]

Even if the prophets of the bible were here today, they wouldn't be eyewitnesses because they never saw god first hand nor did they talk to him directly.

This is not true.

Adam walked and spoke with God (Genesis 3:8 );
Noah spoke with God (Genesis 7:1);
Moses had visitation from God out of the burning bush (Exodus 3:4) and on Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:20);
Aaron was spoken to by God to go and meet Moses (Exodus 4:27);
God called Samuel, who answered 'hear am I' (1 Samuel 3:4);
The word of the Lord came to Nathan (2 Samuel 7:4) and frequently;
God called Joshua and instructed him to bring the children of Israel into the promised land (Jos 1:1-2);
The word of the Lord came to Isaiah (2 Kings 20:4);
The Lord spoke to Job out of a whirlwind (Job 40:6);
The Lord commanded Jeremiah to speak to the people (Jeremiah 26:8 );
The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:3);
After consulting every self-professed profit and soothsayer in the land, Nebuchadnezzar was troubled, unable to understand his dreams, but after seeking counsel from Daniel who spoke with God, "The king answered Daniel, and said, "Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret." (Daniel 2:47) All this from an unbeliever;
God spoke with Jonah, telling him to go to Nineveh (Jonah 1:1-2);
Jesus, Son of God, walked, talked and ate with his 12 disciples and many thousands of people (Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, etc...)

These are but a few examples of when prophets and even the ordinary were spoken to by God Himself (not angels)

Futhermore, I will even assert that if one of the prophets were here now to speak for themselves no somewhat rational christian , no matter how devout to their doctrines, would believe that they were actually prophets.

I think you are right that most would disbelieve. Most religious people disbelieved Jesus was who He claimed to be, and thus He said, "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here." (Matthew 12:42)

In essence He says, the greatest of prophets- God Himself has presented His face and yet He is despised beyond earlier men of God.

Mine ramble endeth.

[Nyril]

I am being careful. I am carefully choosing the word "knowledge" in saying that I know Jesus Christ is God. I know that is true. I am positive. There isn't a fact on this planet that I am more sure about. It is a knowledge.

I am being careful. I am carefully choosing the word "knowledge" in saying that I know Allah is God. I know that is true. I am positive. There isn't a fact on this planet that I am more sure about. It is a knowledge.

I am being careful. I am carefully choosing the word "knowledge" in saying that I know Zeus is God. I know that is true. I am positive. There isn't a fact on this planet that I am more sure about. It is a knowledge.

I am being careful. I am carefully choosing the word "knowledge" in saying that I know The Invisible Pink Unicorn is God. I know that is true. I am positive. There isn't a fact on this planet that I am more sure about. It is a knowledge.

If you don't believe me that I have this knowledge - you don't need to explain to me what a belief is because I already know. Instead, as sad as it is - I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree. The debate on this knowledge issue will always come to a halt until you and any other non-believer decides to sincerely check it out for yourselves.

You said it's knowledge of things not seen (in another post), but if you can't see it, much less observe it or perceive it, it's not something we can know. It could exist, but we, as people don't know that personally.

Well that's why there's a different word for it, but I'm showing that the idea is the same. Knowledge is of things seen. Faith is knowledge, but of things not seen. They're exactly the same. Just like forgiveness and mercy. Forgiveness is when you forgive somebody inside, in your heart. Mercy is putting to action the forgiveness that is in your heart.

Well when using the broad term of "religion", you must use "believe" because there are not multiple correct answers.

The only correct answer is in Christianity. So if we speak specifically, which we have been, we can use knowledge. Otherwise belief is the accurate word.

The only correct answer is in Islam. So if we speak specifically, which we have been, we can use knowledge. Otherwise belief is the accurate word.

The only correct answer is in Paganism. So if we speak specifically, which we have been, we can use knowledge. Otherwise belief is the accurate word.

The only correct answer is in imaginary animals. So if we speak specifically, which we have been, we can use knowledge. Otherwise belief is the accurate word.

What is incorrect with the three altered statements after each relevant quote? Why is what I have posted incorrect, and what you have posted, correct?

[bernee51]

I do not mean to sound arrogant, I am only speaking from what i know. If you want, I can explain why Christianity being the only correct answer is not arrogant.

Believing anything to be the only correct answer is arrogance.

Wishing to impose a particular worldview is agrogance.

The Abrahamic religiona would be the most arrogant philosophies to have ever been thrust upon humanity.

[Simon]

"Believing anything to be the only correct answer is arrogance." - this is a belief that you hold, and one believed by you to be the only correct answer. Therefore, on your view, it is arrogant and or you are arrogant.

"Wishing to impose a particular worldview is agrogance." - This is your worldview, and you wish to impose it onto me. Therefore, on your view, it is arrogant and or you are arrogant.