Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:48 pm

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:24 am

Simon wrote:"Science states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. I am simply asking how was it created not when." Really? Where does "science" (or anyone) say this?

Conservation of energy (the first law of thermodynamics) is one of several conservation laws. It states that the total inflow of energy into a system must equal the total outflow of energy from the system, plus the change in the energy contained within the system. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

Source.

Technically, matter itself can be annihilated, but a corresponding amount of energy will be released every time. By 'corresponding', I mean the amount given by Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2, so that nothing is really lost.

TQWcS · Post by **TQWcS** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:15 pm

We are talking about physical matter being created. God on the other hand is not physical matter and you cannot apply the law of conservation of mass to him.

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:44 pm

That's convenient - I think we were referring to the creation of the matter in the Universe, rather than the matter that makes up God, but I guess the same argument can apply. What is God made of then? Anything we can actually measure empirically or test in any reliable way?

TQWcS · Post by **TQWcS** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:19 pm

That's convenient - I think we were referring to the creation of the matter in the Universe, rather than the matter that makes up God, but I guess the same argument can apply. What is God made of then? Anything we can actually measure empirically or test in any reliable way?

What I find convient is you not providing an alternate explanation for the creation of matter.

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:04 pm

What I find convient is you not providing an alternate explanation for the creation of matter.

We don't need one. Just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it defaults to your position, you still need to justify it.

But thinking along those lines, if you can accept that god can come into existance, and has been in existance, for all eternity without any help. Why then can't you accept that the universe can have those precise attributes?

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:15 pm

TQWcS, the fairly well-established laws of thermodynamics claim, if I understand them correctly, that creation of matter/energy is impossible. You claim the existence of a being which can break this law, and which created all the matter in the Universe. That's going to take some justification.

However, since plenty of this matter stuff certainly exists, is it possible for it to just exist, if it was never created? It must be possible for something to exist without requiring creation, otherwise we have an infinite regression of creators. So, some things can exist without having been 'created' by something else. If you claim that this can apply to God, but it can't apply to the Universe, that's going to require justification also.

TQWcS · Post by **TQWcS** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:16 pm

But thinking along those lines, if you can accept that god can come into existance, and has been in existance, for all eternity without any help. Why then can't you accept that the universe can have those precise attributes?

No, because science tells us there was a beginning. I want to know where the matter came from to cause this beginning. I never stated there was a beginning with God. If you want to say that the universe always has been then you are going agaisnt modern science.

potwalloper. · Post by **potwalloper.** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:52 pm

No, because science tells us there was a beginning.

Science does not tell us that there was a beginning. For something to begin there needs to have been a time when it was not there. If we accept relativity and that the universe came from a singularity the concept of "before" has no meaning as time would have begun at the point of the big bang...

TQWcS · Post by **TQWcS** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:09 pm

Science does not tell us that there was a beginning. For something to begin there needs to have been a time when it was not there. If we accept relativity and that the universe came from a singularity the concept of "before" has no meaning as time would have begun at the point of the big bang...

The question still remains. What caused this to happen?

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:17 pm

I don't know.

But even if nobody really knows, does that mean that God is the only possible answer? A while ago, people had no idea why the sun rose every day, so they assumed it must be God that was doing it. Thunder? What could that be? Don't know, must be Thor getting angry. Beginning of the Universe? Not sure. Must be some invisible, unknowable omnipotent being.

Maybe it's true, but it's not a fair assumption that, just because science can propose no definitive and absolute answers, there can be none, other than to postulate some new entity, whose existence seems to resist any empirical testing. Can you demonstrate that the Universe could not have possibly come into existence without God, at least to within a degree of reasonable doubt?

We should probably take this somewhere else, we haven't really been directly discussing Santa for a while...