Do you really care that I am going to hell?

[Cmass]

I don't think you really believe I will fry in Hell for being an Atheist. I don't think you really truly believe any of your non-believing family will either. I think deep down, you know it just isn't true.

If you do believe they will all fry and are not doing absolutely everything in your power to stop it, I would suggest that you are a very cold, dispassionate person. If you really believed your dearly beloved mother was going to burn in hell right next to Cmass and Charles Manson then you would stop at nothing to convince her to accept Jesus. You would not just gently encourage, you would be emotionally and perhaps even physically engaged on a daily and hourly basis. You most certainly would not be reading this silly OP right now. Not if you REALLY cared.

Think about it. If you saw your mother being beaten by someone on the street, would you stop to help save her? Would you put your own life at risk to keep her from drowning? Is there anything you would not do to help her? OK, what about eternal torture in hell? Doesn't this concern you? What about all the other people in your life who are going to hell? Doesn't this leave you feeling devastated? If I believed there was a hell and that so many people would be going - especially any of my friends or family - I would be in constant agony myself and would devote my life to stopping it. Or, I would be numb.

Does your knowledge that so many people will be in eternal torture bother you very much on a daily basis?

This OP came about after reading commentary by some of our more conservative Christian friends in here. Some seem to have no real problem with all us atheists burning in hell forever. Granted, there are probably some personal anger issues involved but still, I have always been uneasy with how casual many Christians are when it comes to discussing eternal damnation. Some get more upset over running over a kitty than the eternal torture of their best friend.

Nonetheless, I give most the benefit of the doubt: I don't think they are really that cold. I just don't think they really believe as much in the hell concept as they report.

[Cmass]

Once again, Openmind summarized my OP better than I.
I honestly do not think most Christians believe in Hell except as a concept - a place where bad people are somehow punished. I don't think they really, serious consider - given the descriptions of Hell given earlier - what torture feels or looks like. Go as far as your imagination can possibly take you. Imagine your mother being raped and sodomized by the devil as he laughs and she screams in terror. Then he burns her - slowly. Then he smashes her against a rock and does every imaginable thing you could possibly imagine to make someone miserable. Now think of the emotional pain she feels knowing she is utterly alone. There may be other people in Hell, but she certainly would not have the "enjoyment" of knowing they are there with her. Now multiply that time infinity in terms of pain and multiply that times infinity in terms of time.
Adlemi, could you actually enjoy your Heaven experience knowing your mother was experiencing this?

[Openmind]

I honestly do not think most Christians believe in Hell except as a concept - a place where bad people are somehow punished. I don't think they really, serious consider - given the descriptions of Hell given earlier - what torture feels or looks like. Go as far as your imagination can possibly take you. Imagine your mother being raped and sodomized by the devil as he laughs and she screams in terror. Then he burns her - slowly. Then he smashes her against a rock and does every imaginable thing you could possibly imagine to make someone miserable. Now think of the emotional pain she feels knowing she is utterly alone. There may be other people in Hell, but she certainly would not have the "enjoyment" of knowing they are there with her. Now multiply that time infinity in terms of pain and multiply that times infinity in terms of time.
Adlemi, could you actually enjoy your Heaven experience knowing your mother was experiencing this?

While the picture you paint is rather ghastly and disturbing Cmass, it is exactly what Christians need to consider. Adlemi - what Cmass describes is not just a possibility under conventional christian doctrine, it's a certainty.

Cmass, I think you will probably never get a straight answer regarding this. Christians (especially those brought up christian) seem to view Hell as a part of life, just something around the corner. Nothing they can relate to however, which is why none investigate it. If all of your family are headed for salvation - then why explore what Hell really means? Hell loses its power to Christians because we can't see, touch, feel or relate to it. It's an awful concept, one that humans will tend to shy away from.

Those who become christian, or have atheist loved ones will need to really consider what Hell means. I don't think many christians do. I think you and I Cmass, have a better understanding of what is going to be like, because we do not have to worry about loved ones ending up there. We have no qualms exploring just what Hell is, and what it entails. A christian might say "I tried to tell her that she would go to Hell, but in the end, it's up to her to decide what she believes". I, like yourself, can only conclude two things from that. Either that person doesn't believe in Hell (because they don't explore or even think about it - thus there is not a lot to worry about), or their lack of true empathy is a result of them being an emotionless, sadistic monster. Just saying it makes you sad to think someone burns in hell is not empathy. You would cry if you had to watch your mother being raped and tortured for one minute, you would die from grief if you had to watch it for eternity. Not many humans are like that, so the first option seems the most reasonable, and you are correct in assuming it Cmass.

Adlemi - Cmass poses a relevant an interesting question? What will your heavenly experience be like? I have your answer:

Awful. No true human soul could be experience the uplifting joy and ecstasy of heaven (without being drugged or DRASTICALLY changed) while at the same time watch their birth mother being raped and burned. No Adlemi...heaven will be truly awful, because unlike Earth, there is no chance your mother can be saved. Or perhaps God spares his followers this, and cuts off their emotions or even fools them into thinking their mother is with them. In that case, enjoy your eternity of ignorance, because your mother is STILL somewhere alone, suffering in supreme agony.

(Cmass - as an aside, did you ever happen to argue with the nutters on www.theflatearthsociety.org??? I swear I saw a Cmass on that site.)

[adlemi]

True you cannot physically restrain her from going to Hell, but you can certainly do a lot of mental manipulation. You should be attempting to convert her 24/7. Obviously, christians must believe that conversion and attempting to convert someone works (otherwise missionaries would be out of a job) so you should be doing it yourself. You should be hiring as many people as possible to help. You should trick her if possible - make voices when she thinks she is alone so she thinks it is God. Write innumerable letters to the Pope asking him to talk to her (regardless of whether you are catholic he no doubt holds a lot of religious sway). Sit her down and force her to read the bible.

There is only One God who is alive and real and He is the One who makes the rule of the game hence all our moves must be bounded by God's rule and not by our own rules and worst of all, our illusions. We can only do that much as provided for by the rule, no more no less. Come to God first so that we may pretty well know the rule lest we find ourself in limbo.

Raising a child to be scared witless of Hell seems an effective tool in convincing someone to believe. You should do the same. Take her to those "hell" shows in the south of America, the ones where they act out the condemnation and torture of a poor homosexual. There are videos in which you can watch people burning in a fake hell and hear their tortured cries. I don't know where you could get one...christian lifestyle shop perhaps?

Perhaps but just don't forget that after doing those moves, the Lord is still reading from the heart and all that is left with us is hope, hope that she may have taken God into her heart to avoid hell.

Disregarding attempts to convert her, consider the emotional toll on yourself. Your mother, your only, loving mother is going to be roasted alive for all time. You should feel the dread just reading that. If I were you, and I truly believed my beloved mother was going to fry for her "sins", then I'd be crying myself to sleep every night, because there is nothing I love more in this world than my family. Unless you don't believe the same thing, you should feel the same way. Have you ever lost a close friend who was christian? You no doubt felt awful and grief stricken. Imagine the same for a non-christian. Feel that every day, for there is no heaven for them.

Yes we have to do our best for as long as she lives provided it is not an imposition or forceful feeding on our part. Faith in God must come from our heart and our soul.

Until you are doing all of the above, and until you feel horrible and sick and disgusted with your mother's afterlife constantly, crying yourself to sleep at night, then I can conclude only one thing: You really don't believe she is going there.

I know what you mean but always bear in mind that our moves are always bounded by the rules promulgated by God hence we need God's guidance for us to do those moves in appropriate manner.

It is not a presumptous statement. It makes a lot of sense. Heck, I would cry myself to sleep every night if I knew my mother was going to be tortured for 2 weeks (like the above example).

That is why there is always hope for as long as we live. So let us come to God so that we may free ourselves out of this kind of apprehension in life.

[Cmass]

Openmind said:

While the picture you paint is rather ghastly and disturbing Cmass,

Yes, it is disturbing. But I don't think there are words to describe Hell except ones that invoke the most disturbing thoughts a person could invent - and multiply by infinity. And, what I described is not as bad as one could imagine.
And yes, I strongly believe Christians MUST face the emotional consequences of believing in Hell. I think if they do so honestly, they will see Heaven cannot exist if Hell does ....and that they probably don't really believe Hell exists. The only other way out is the God-given lobotomy.

Cmass, I think you will probably never get a straight answer regarding this.

Perhaps not, but I am very interested in their answers nonetheless - not just for debate purposes but because I am honestly curious about the emotional landscape a person who claims to believe in Hell as described in the bible. To me, the fundamentalist Christian world view is a horrifying ordeal. If I believed in Hell in the manner they describe, I would be in constant agony myself. Given my personality, there is no way around this conundrum.

Christians (especially those brought up Christian) seem to view Hell as a part of life, just something around the corner. Nothing they can relate to however, which is why none investigate it. If all of your family are headed for salvation - then why explore what Hell really means? Hell loses its power to Christians because we can't see, touch, feel or relate to it. It's an awful concept, one that humans will tend to shy away from.

Personal note 1: Part of the reason for this OP is because I occasionally have nightmares concerning my 2 year old son. (my avatar) These are classic anxiety dreams many parents have. Last weekend I had a dream where he was abducted from his daycare. I searched frantically house to house knowing it was probably futile. I kept wondering if he would be abused by his abductor of if he would recognize me if I finally found him years later. A bizarre and disturbing part of the dream was that everyone I met seemed totally unconcerned.
Just this one simple dream - where nobody actually died or was hurt - seriously disturbed me. I woke up shaking and went to his crib to make sure he was OK. In fact, the next day I picked him up from daycare in the middle of the afternoon and took him home and held him tight as I quietly wept. He just looked at me strangely and said "Daddy kweye. Laisha hurt and kweye too." (The beginning of empathy: He was concerned that I was hurt like his friend Elijah)
I can only imagine what parents who lose their children (can you say "Iraq"?) go through emotionally. Many commit suicide - and I can see why. But, once again, this was only a dream - and it only concerned 1 loved one and he was "only" kidnapped. But if he was being tortured in Hell I would be in Hell too - no way around it. The same is true with other members of my family and my friends.
Personal note 2: I score very high on "empathy" in personality tests. Some people don't. I react strongly when I see people suffering and have close emotional bonds with my friends and family (even if I don't always get along with them). I would not do well in Heaven unless my personality was fundamentally altered by God. Perhaps if I was given a lobotomy. (I would also have to be castrated so I would not lust after angels!)

Perhaps a requirement for (true) belief in Hell is a dampening of the empathy effect?

BTW: One of the things that is common among serial killers and rapists is their lack of empathy. They get off on the control they have over others but are utterly incapable of feeling their victim's pain. Empathy is a major component of what we generally regard as humanity.

Heaven is not possible except for those who either have no empathy or are fundamentally altered by God....in which case they are no longer themselves but are instead lobotomized robots in some bizarre form of ecstasy. (Rush Limbaugh fans on drugs?)

Here is an outrageous thought:
YOU don't believe in Hell. If you really did, you would probably deserve to be there.

[Cmass]

Adlemi said:

There is only One God who is alive and real and He is the One who makes the rule of the game hence all our moves must be bounded by God's rule and not by our own rules and worst of all, our illusions. We can only do that much as provided for by the rule, no more no less. Come to God first so that we may pretty well know the rule lest we find ourself in limbo.

(Underlined sections are there because I find it sad that you consider yourself a game piece for God)

Adlemi,
You are not addressing the issue as presented. Openmind is describing what should be a very emotionally charged scenario involving your mother going to Hell. But you answer with some stuff about God being alive and real and having rules.

Adlemi said:

...t just don't forget that after doing those moves, the Lord is still reading from the heart and all that is left with us is hope, hope that she may have taken God into her heart to avoid hell.

Still avoiding .......and talking about "doing" moves and having hope.

Adlemi said:

Yes we have to do our best for as long as she lives provided it is not an imposition or forceful feeding on our part. Faith in God must come from our heart and our soul.

Still avoiding. I would have greater respect for your position if I saw you take on the emotional consequences of Hell head-on. .

Openmind wrote:

Until you are doing all of the above, and until you feel horrible and sick and disgusted with your mother's afterlife constantly, crying yourself to sleep at night, then I can conclude only one thing: You really don't believe she is going there.

Adlemi wrote:

I know what you mean but always bear in mind that our moves are always bounded by the rules promulgated by God hence we need God's guidance for us to do those moves in appropriate manner.

How does this address what Openmind said? He was talking about feelings associated with your mother burning in Hell and how it might affect you. You answered with a statement about "our moves" and God's rules and needing God's guidance. You are avoiding the scene. Shall I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is too painful for you to contemplate? Or do you not really believe this childish Hell nonsense?

Openmind wrote:

....Heck, I would cry myself to sleep every night if I knew my mother was going to be tortured for 2 weeks (like the above example).

Adlemi wrote:

That is why there is always hope for as long as we live. So let us come to God so that we may free ourselves out of this kind of apprehension in life.

This is a sadly empty statement. You are still avoiding the scene as presented.

In none of your statements above do you ever mention how your mother's torture in Hell would make you FEEL or how it might impact your life in Heaven. This is what I read from you:
* God has rules.
* We live a long time so we can know the rules.
* Have hope.
* Come to God.
* Know God.

Adlemi,
COULD YOU ENJOY YOUR EXPERIENCE IN HEAVEN WHILE KNOWING A PERSON YOU LOVED DEARLY WAS BEING TORTURED IN HELL FOREVER?
Think about it: Your mother is down there with Saddam while your daughter's rapist - who came to the Lord, accepted Jesus and went to Heaven - is on the cloud right next to you smiling. Are you happy or did you take God's personality-altering Prozac?

[adlemi]

In none of your statements above do you ever mention how your mother's torture in Hell would make you FEEL or how it might impact your life in Heaven. This is what I read from you:
* God has rules.
* We live a long time so we can know the rules.
* Have hope.
* Come to God.
* Know God.

Somehow I'm coming to you in a 10 - 4 mode. And I forget the last one with what you said above, live and sup with God (while we are still alive in this earth). You know guys, we may not really meet each other because you have a different perception vis a vis with mine of what would it be in heaven and in hell afterlife. A person in paradise when that time comes has no more memories of his past including his motherps torture in hell hence how could it have an impact in his life there? And this total elimination of memories in paradise is one of the rules promulgated by God. It is therefore a must to do all your moves while you are both still alive to prevent the ordeal in hell when death comes to both of you. One thing more, I said rules of the game just for the purpose of comparing our endeavor to a game.

Adlemi,
COULD YOU ENJOY YOUR EXPERIENCE IN HEAVEN WHILE KNOWING A PERSON YOU LOVED DEARLY WAS BEING TORTURED IN HELL FOREVER?

That is if you have still that memory when you are already in heaven? The Lord said that you will remember nothing of your past so your question is null and void in heaven. You will be totally a new being in heaven without any semblance of the past hence how can you cry there in agony with your mother's destiny in hell?

Think about it: Your mother is down there with Saddam while your daughter's rapist - who came to the Lord, accepted Jesus and went to Heaven - is on the cloud right next to you smiling. Are you happy or did you take God's personality-altering Prozac?

]
It is very easy to say "I accept the Lord" but it is not that easy to make Jesus believe that we accepted Him because Jesus is reading from within our heart and not just from the movement of our lips. YOU can only have a good grasp of these things you talk about once you come to know God and live and sup with God as in the days of the old.

[Cmass]

OK. Well, that does clear a lot up. But it also suggests that you are no longer you when you go to heaven. Without your memories there is not much you left.
BTW: Out of curiosity, where in the bible does god or jesus say you will have no memories in heaven?

[twobitsmedia]

That is if you have still that memory when you are already in heaven? The Lord said that you will remember nothing of your past so your question is null and void in heaven. You will be totally a new being in heaven without any semblance of the past hence how can you cry there in agony with your mother's destiny in hell?
.

Your memories are a part of your soul and aids in creating who you are. So, (1 is there a bible verse for the Lord taking your memory, or is this just something he told you while you "supped" with him? and 2) If he takes your memory, doesn't that make this life an "excercise in futility?"

[Metatron]

That is if you have still that memory when you are already in heaven? The Lord said that you will remember nothing of your past so your question is null and void in heaven. You will be totally a new being in heaven without any semblance of the past hence how can you cry there in agony with your mother's destiny in hell?
.

Your memories are a part of your soul and aids in creating who you are. So, (1 is there a bible verse for the Lord taking your memory, or is this just something he told you while you "supped" with him? and 2) If he takes your memory, doesn't that make this life an "excercise in futility?"

Gotta go with twobits here.

What's the point of life on Earth if God is going to wipe us clean and make us a "totally new being in heaven without a semblance of the past"? And what is the point of Hell since if God did the exact same thing to them, they ALSO would be totally new beings and just as qualified for heaven. Why not skip terrestrial life all together and just start them there in the first place since either way they will be "totally new beings"?

[MikeH]

I don't think you really believe I will fry in Hell for being an Atheist. I don't think you really truly believe any of your non-believing family will either. I think deep down, you know it just isn't true.

If you do believe they will all fry and are not doing absolutely everything in your power to stop it, I would suggest that you are a very cold, dispassionate person. If you really believed your dearly beloved mother was going to burn in hell right next to Cmass and Charles Manson then you would stop at nothing to convince her to accept Jesus. You would not just gently encourage, you would be emotionally and perhaps even physically engaged on a daily and hourly basis. You most certainly would not be reading this silly OP right now. Not if you REALLY cared.

Think about it. If you saw your mother being beaten by someone on the street, would you stop to help save her? Would you put your own life at risk to keep her from drowning? Is there anything you would not do to help her? OK, what about eternal torture in hell? Doesn't this concern you? What about all the other people in your life who are going to hell? Doesn't this leave you feeling devastated? If I believed there was a hell and that so many people would be going - especially any of my friends or family - I would be in constant agony myself and would devote my life to stopping it. Or, I would be numb.

Does your knowledge that so many people will be in eternal torture bother you very much on a daily basis?

This OP came about after reading commentary by some of our more conservative Christian friends in here. Some seem to have no real problem with all us atheists burning in hell forever. Granted, there are probably some personal anger issues involved but still, I have always been uneasy with how casual many Christians are when it comes to discussing eternal damnation. Some get more upset over running over a kitty than the eternal torture of their best friend.

Nonetheless, I give most the benefit of the doubt: I don't think they are really that cold. I just don't think they really believe as much in the hell concept as they report.

Yeesh

The Christians who are trying everything they can do to save people from hell are passing out tracts, walking door to door, holding up signs, etc... These are the ones that everybody else seems to hate for bugging everybody and saying they are going to hell every day.

Now, the Christians who are not as pushy and just try to live the example of a good life are getting flamed for NOT telling people they're going to hell?

What the hell (pun intended) do you want from these people?