Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

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Blastcat
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Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi gang !

Once again, while showering, something came to mind...

William Lane Craig is famous for his re-working of the old Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Here it is in a nut-shell for those who might need a bit of a refresher. Craig states the Kalam cosmological argument as a brief syllogism, most commonly rendered as follows:

______________

The argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
P2. The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

C1. The universe has a cause.

From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:

P3. The universe has a cause;
P4. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

Therefore:

C. An uncased, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

____________

This thread wants to take a good look at P1. that is, the very first premise of the argument that states :"Whatever begins to exist has a cause."

As in all arguments, if we accept that this premise is true, we move on to the next premise, and so on, to it's conclusion that must follow from one to the next without any gaps.

Now, if we cannot demonstrate that a premise in the argument is TRUE, then the argument may be VALID, but not sound. The conclusion we get from an argument is just as weak as it's weakest link, so to speak.

So, what about the first premise?

Is it TRUE that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"?

I am a skeptic at heart, so I am suspicious about that.


Let me give some preliminary reasons, that I got while showering with my Spiderman "Spidey Sense" Soft Soap ®... ( very refreshing ) :


1. Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist. I'm not too sure what that means... What does it MEAN to say that something has a "beginning" to it's existence? What does it MEAN to say that not all things begin to exist? Which kinds of things begin to exist, and which kinds of things don't begin to exist? Now, we need rigorous definitions, don't we? Anyone has those? I sure don't. The more that I look, the more confused I get.

2. It doesn't say what hasn't begun to exist. But I suspect that the case is very well chosen. Some people might protest that there is a difference between saying that something doesn't begin to exist and saying that something hasn't yet begun to exist. We are now having to make a distinction that is very subtly grammatical.

3. Of course, if something has not yet begun to exist, it cannot yet exist. But if we are trying to prove that something has caused the universe, it at least has to exist in some way. Otherwise, the argument... is weird.

4. The Kalam is very old.. It wasn't always phrased the way that WLC does. In fact, WLC has introduced the word "begins to" ... because before we could ask "Who caused God?". So, it seems that Craig wants to save the argument by replacing "exists" by "begins to exist". If only GOD doesn't "begin to exist", then I see special pleading going on.

5. Craig says this about the nature of "God's" infinity:

"God's infinity is, as it were, qualitative, not quantitative. It means that God is metaphysically necessary, morally perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and so on."

In other words, when Craig uses the term "infinite" to refer to a being who doesn't begin, he isn't talking about numbers, but characteristics. I "began to exist" in the middle 50's. See how that's a number? I could have started counting the years of my "existence" at 0, or 1, or some other NUMBER, but it's weird to think that we don't COUNT things without numbers.. but if there are no NUMBERS, to me, it's weird to say that something began or didn't begin. Time is a series of numbers, one after another.. seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years.. eons.. we count those, because they are NUMBERED. If it can't be counted, I don't know how it can be called "time", and if it isn't "time" we are talking about.. causation seems a bit weird to be talking about.. and to begin.. implies "time"... so again.. very weird.

So, when I read "Whatever BEGINS to exist.." I think "What on earth is Craig talking about"? A quality or a measurable instance of time? If the word BEGINS is an instance of time that is measurable for everything ELSE but "God", this is special pleading once again.

6. The second part.. "A CAUSE" ... this is the really REALLY weird part.. and I will keep it short. You see, Craig doesn't like infinite regresses.. so, the universe can't be it's own cause due to an infinite regress.. what cause the cause of the cause.. and so on.. Physical matter NOT of this universe can't be the cause because.. what's the cause of THAT.. and so on.. more infinite regress. The very ODD thing about Craig's solution, "God", is that it is eternal in the past.. In other words, it seems to "cause the cause of the cause of the cause.. " in an infinite regress. To me, and this is just preliminary thinking, he solves one infinity.. "Cause" with another infinity "God".


Just some thoughts.. I have my doubts about the first premise.

_____________

So, here are the questions for debate:


1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?

_____________


:)

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Post #61

Post by alexxcJRO »

[Replying to Blastcat]

k:P no more talking about other premises.


"Maybe Craig himself will make an appearance !!!
How about someone in here invite the guy.

Seems like the least we can do.
To be civil. "


Would be something to seem him here.
I don't think he would accept an invitation.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
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Post #62

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 61 by alexxcJRO]
alexxcJRO wrote:
k:P no more talking about other premises.
Would be something to seem him here.
Maybe if a lot of people ask very politely.
Apparently Craig will not bother to debate if one does not have a related PHD, so if someone like THAT would ask... who knows?

In any case, this site needs a lot more attention.
I don't LIKE being wrong, and I am sure the big name apologists could help me out.

Where ARE they?
People are losing their faith right and left around here... dropping like flies !!!

COME ON PEOPLE !!!
Defend the first premise of the KCA ... it's got a leak.




:)

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #63

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Blastcat wrote: 1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
Bruh, the idea behind P1 is that things don't just pop into existence uncaused out of nothing. There are just too many philosophical problems with that idea. Most people will admit this intuitive truth, except for those with an axe to grind who know the implications of what it means for an entire universe which began to exist and therefore need an external cause for its existence.

Kind of reminds me of my infamous MOA thread, how most of you were willing to grant certain premises of the argument (P2) until I pointed out its implications, and then all of a sudden what you had previously granted, you must now deny.

It is the same kind of "thing" going on here with P1 of the KCA. This led me to believe that it isn't about the evidence...it is about the blatant and obvious denial of truth and the lengths that people will go through to remain in denial.

But, that being said; lets take a look at Leibiniz's version of the cosmological argument.

1. Everything that exists has a reason for its existence, either based on the necessity of its nature, or based upon an external cause.

2. The universe does not / can not exist based upon the necessity of its nature.

3. Therefore, the universe owes its existence to an external cause.

I can't articulate why I like this version better than Craig's...they seem the same, yet they also seem different (shrugs).

The argument is valid/sound and yet another reason why theism has more explanatory power than atheism.
Blastcat wrote: 2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?
Some things are necessarily true.

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #64

Post by Willum »

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]
Bruh, the idea behind P1 is that things don't just pop into existence uncaused out of nothing. There are just too many philosophical problems with that idea. Most people will admit this intuitive truth, except for those with an axe to grind who know the implications of what it means for an entire universe which began to exist and therefore need an external cause for its existence.
Hi K&P, how many times must it be pointed out that things do not pop out of nothing.

The things that the things are made of have always been there. Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed.

Here, try to think of an example where that isn't true.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #65

Post by FarWanderer »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 52 by FarWanderer]

My mind is made up of atoms,
I think this is an overreach. Does the word "mind", in natural usage, ever denote a physical object?
Willum wrote:My mind is made up of atoms, and the communication between them, those atoms always existed.
That part about "communication" is intellectually honest. Appreciated.

If communication between the set of atoms is a necessary component of your mind, then it is not enough to say that the atoms have always existed in order for your mind to have always existed. The communication between them must have always existed as well.
Willum wrote:See the difference?
Matter can be transformed, but not created or destroyed.
Transformed from food, to protein to brain and then mind. But no "beginning to exist."
Indeed, matter cannot be created or destroyed. The First Law of Thermodynamics.

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #66

Post by Willum »

[Replying to FarWanderer]

True, but do you want a conversation about "mind," or the Kalam'?

I am sticking with Kalam', and by logic, the mind has NOT always existed.
There have been a flux of atoms in and out of anyone's brain, that if we viewed time in reverse, would diminish until conception.

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #67

Post by alexxcJRO »

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]

“But, that being said; lets take a look at Leibiniz's version of the cosmological argument.

1. Everything that exists has a reason for its existence, either based on the necessity of its nature, or based upon an external cause.
2. The universe does not / can not exist based upon the necessity of its nature.
3. Therefore, the universe owes its existence to an external cause.

I can't articulate why I like this version better than Craig's...they seem the same, yet they also seem different (shrugs).

The argument is valid/sound and yet another reason why theism has more explanatory power than atheism. “





Nonsense. 8-)

Basically your saying the universe has a cause, therefore one personal creator was the cause.

But how do you get from the universe has a cause to one personal agent created the universe, for all we know there may have been :

-many personal agents involved in the creation.

-single/ many non-personal agents involved in the creation.

-the cause may be natural; one or a number of only jointly sufficient causes. (ex: the multiverse hypothesis).


Saying the universe has a cause; then i don’t know what caused the universe; therefore God just plays right into the God of the Gaps.

Your committing the following logical fallacies:

1. The Non sequitur fallacy - where a stated conclusion is not supported by its premise and therefore the conclusion is arbitrary.

2. The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen.

The fallacy is an argument from ignorance and an informal fallacy.

3. Fallacy of the single cause (causal oversimplification) – it is assumed that there is one, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #68

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 63 by For_The_Kingdom]




[center]Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
Getting confused as to what we are discussing.
Part One[/center]

Blastcat wrote: 1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Bruh, the idea behind P1 is that things don't just pop into existence uncaused out of nothing. There are just too many philosophical problems with that idea.
That's not what the first premise refers to.
This thread is about the first premise of Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument. I suggest that you look it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cos ... l_argument

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Most people will admit this intuitive truth, except for those with an axe to grind who know the implications of what it means for an entire universe which began to exist and therefore need an external cause for its existence.
Well, I don't know about most people.
I just know about myself.

That's why, I usually just talk about what I think.. and not what most people think.
And I surely do NOT try to tell my opponents what they think.

I ask them, instead.
I suggest you do the same.

I don't PRETEND to believe that you can read minds.

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Kind of reminds me of my infamous MOA thread, how most of you were willing to grant certain premises of the argument (P2) until I pointed out its implications, and then all of a sudden what you had previously granted, you must now deny.
We aren't discussing the "MOA", either.

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
It is the same kind of "thing" going on here with P1 of the KCA. This led me to believe that it isn't about the evidence...it is about the blatant and obvious denial of truth and the lengths that people will go through to remain in denial.
You must consider it important to let us know that you believe your opponents aren't interested in the evidence.

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
But, that being said; lets take a look at Leibiniz's version of the cosmological argument.
Let's not.
But you are free to create a new thread about it.

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
I can't articulate why I like this version better than Craig's...they seem the same, yet they also seem different (shrugs).
Yeah, I can plainly see that you can't articulate your reasoning.
Unfortunately, the two arguments aren't the same.

One way of knowing is that they don't use the same words.

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
The argument is valid/sound and yet another reason why theism has more explanatory power than atheism.
It's valid/sound, but you just can't articulate why.
Thanks for the input.

Blastcat wrote: 2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Some things are necessarily true.
Well, that explains it, then.
Now, why didn't I think of that?

Of course, it could just as breezily said that some things are necessarily FALSE.



:)

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #69

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Willum wrote:
Hi K&P, how many times must it be pointed out that things do not pop out of nothing.
Well, on naturalism, either you have to believe that the universe popped in to being uncaused out of nothing...or you believe in infinite regression.

Doesn't matter, as both concepts are equally absurd and grossly unjustifiable.
Willum wrote: The things that the things are made of have always been there. Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed.

Here, try to think of an example where that isn't true.
You are factually right and factually wrong at the same time. You are right to point out the fact that something had to have always been there...now, me and you differ on what that "something" is...I say it is God, you say it is the universe.

You are WRONG when you apply the first law of thermodynamics to a finite universe...which is what this universe is...finite.

The first law only comes in to effect AFTER the universe began to exist...not prior...because that would be..absurd, wouldn't it?

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #70

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

alexxcJRO wrote:
Nonsense. 8-)

Basically your saying the universe has a cause, therefore one personal creator was the cause.

But how do you get from the universe has a cause to one personal agent created the universe, for all we know there may have been :

-many personal agents involved in the creation.


First off, even if there were many personal agents involved, that would still defeat atheism, wouldn't it? Second, the argument makes a case for intelligent design, in general...now, whether or not this intelligent design consisted of many agents or one agent is irrelevant.

Third, only one personal agent is needed, and we don't need to go beyond what is necessary to explain the effect....so, only one agent is needed to explain it..therefore, to go beyond what is needed to explain it would be unnecessary.

alexxcJRO wrote:
-single/ many non-personal agents involved in the creation.


In other words, nature, right?

alexxcJRO wrote:
-the cause may be natural; one or a number of only jointly sufficient causes. (ex: the multiverse hypothesis).


Geez. Well, the good thing about philosophical evidence is that it is completely independent of physics...so in other words, the problem of infinite regression applies to any multi-verse quantum gravity psuedo universe that you'd like to posit.

It just doesn't matter.

alexxcJRO wrote:

Saying the universe has a cause; then i don’t know what caused the universe; therefore God just plays right into the God of the Gaps.
Ahhh yes, the good ole God of the Gaps accusation, eh? See, such an accusation is played out...it is archaic.

Not to mention the fact that, in the post that you are replying to...I never said nor even remotely implied anything along the lines of "I don't know what caused the universe; therefore, God".

Yet, you are so quick to spew the typical atheist quip/accusation of God of the Gaps, you didn't realize the straw man that you were gonna attack. SMH.
alexxcJRO wrote: Your committing the following logical fallacies:

1. The Non sequitur fallacy - where a stated conclusion is not supported by its premise and therefore the conclusion is arbitrary.
I didn't give the full argument, no. I gave an outline of the argument, yes.
alexxcJRO wrote: 2. The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen.
Straw man fallacy. In my post, I didn't say anything like that...so what are you talking about, bruh?
alexxcJRO wrote: 3. Fallacy of the single cause (causal oversimplification) – it is assumed that there is one, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes.
You are accusing me of fallacies I didn't commit based upon statement/implications that I never gave.

Either you are being disingenuous or you have reading comprehension issues. It is a bad look, either way.

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