Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[OpenYourEyes]

I can not offer you a precise amount of time and depth, and besides this would vary from person-to-person. Since we're dealing with research, I will at least say that the research should be about the same or more than what would be required for a research paper. Each reason or objection that causes doubt should be handled accordingly, although other things besides research can be done, as well.

You say that like believers have done enough research to fill a paper before signing up for Christianity. What do you say to the suggestion that one is required to completed ones research, which should be along the same lines as when you'd complete a good research paper, before allowing to become a Christian?

The requirements for joining Christianity are already defined by Christ, and people join out of faith and not reason. However, I will say that there are plenty of former atheists who do the research before joining and they find that Christianity makes a compelling case; Lee Strobel and otseng comes to mind. So your suggestion is already being followed by some atheists but it's not a requirement according Jesus's standards.

Do you want to make it so much harder to leave than to join?

People are free to join or leave for whatever reasons they see fit. My point is about a specific problem that occurs when leaving the faith and the reasons behind that. If someone wants to claim that they're leaving Christianity for reasonable reasons (justifies their doubts), then it should be expected that they do their research just as reason requires. From my journey through many different forums and from my time in college, I find that many atheists have done little to no research on the matters that caused them doubt.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 60 by OpenYourEyes]

The requirements for joining Christianity is already defined by Christ, and people join out of faith and not reason.

So there's no point to doing research then, if reason is not involved.

So your suggestion is already being followed by some atheists but it's not a requirement according Jesus's standards.

Yeah, don't do research, just believe.

If someone wants to claim that they're leaving Christianity for reasonable reasons (justifies their doubts), then it should be expected that they do their research just as reason requires.

So when the priests surrounding one tell you all throughout your childhood the Holy Spirit is here, and doing this and that, only one notices nothing at all happening, that's not enough? It's not enough to simply conclude the priests are peddling bovine faeces?
What you're doing here is a shifting of the burden of proof. You're saying that when one leaves Christianity, they have to research and, to a lesser/greater degree prove the adherents wrong. Where's the burden on the adherents to prove themselves right?

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 60 by OpenYourEyes]

The requirements for joining Christianity is already defined by Christ, and people join out of faith and not reason.

So there's no point to doing research then, if reason is not involved.

No research is mandated to join Christianity. But once you're in that doesn't mean you can't use your brain to understand your faith, to learn about the philosophical implications, to answer objections, etc.

I highly recommend just this so that way you can establish a solid foundation for why you believe. Doubts won't have as much impact because you have a strong foundation (the strong points/reasons/experiences, etc) to fall back on as opposed to those who only have only their parents to fall back on.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 62 by OpenYourEyes]

No research is mandated to join Christianity.

But there is [by you], for leaving Christianity. This is looking hypocritical.

But once you're in that doesn't mean you can't use your brain to understand your faith, to learn about the philosophical implications, to answer objections, etc.

But only AFTER you're in, AFTER one has swallowed the kool-aid and believes what is being claimed, with no research done.

I highly recommend just this so that way you can establish a solid foundation for why you believe. Doubts won't have as much impact because you have a strong foundation

A strong foundation...of no research prior to joining Christianity, I have to remind you of what you just said.

(the strong points/reasons/experiences, etc)

What strong points/reasons/experiences? According to you, no research is needed to be done.

Shall I take your advice and apply it to Scientology? Throw thousands of dollars at them, join the [strike]pyramid scheme[/strike] religion, before doing research?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 60 by OpenYourEyes]
So you'd have no problems with people dropping out for flimsy reasons as long as they don't claim to have left for rational reasons?

As for your own experience on different forums and college, are you sure you are giving leavers enough credit for the research they have actually done?

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 62 by OpenYourEyes]

No research is mandated to join Christianity.

But there is [by you], for leaving Christianity. This is looking hypocritical.

It is only recommended by me when the reason for leaving is claimed to be logic and evidence. Reason and evidence requires research. If a Christian leaves the faith for reasons other than 'reason' then my point does not apply to them.

So you'd have no problems with people dropping out for flimsy reasons as long as they don't claim to have left for rational reasons?

Yes, that's correct, and an atheist should also be free to leave based on rational reasons, as well. My issue is only with those who claim to leave for rational reasons/doubt but then they also did not do good research into the areas of their doubt.

As for your own experience on different forums and college, are you sure you are giving leavers enough credit for the research they have actually done?

I'm very sure. The evidence can be seen by looking at the type of objections that are raised by many former Christians - objections that sometimes even basic research would answer. With these former Christians, I don't bother much with answering all of their objections, but instead I tend to emphasize the resources and tools that's needed to answer their questions. I figured that even if I did answer their questions, and engage in an all out factual debate (as I've done on topics relating to homosexuality, historicity of Jesus, morality, etc) and they became Christians again, then the underlying problem of not being able to deal with doubt is still there because they don't do or know how to do good research. They would be at risk of dropping out again.

And when I say that many atheists don't do good research, I'm speaking based off of the responses that I get when I press them about what research they've done on the matter. Like I said in my OP, some ask one teacher, some jump on internet forums and let others including atheists explain it for them, etc, etc.

[Replying to post 62 by OpenYourEyes]

(the strong points/reasons/experiences, etc)

What strong points/reasons/experiences?

That would vary based on which argument persuades an individual. I have plenty of personal experiences that I can bring up but one scientific point I can bring up is the mind/body problem. Scientists can not explain how the electrochemical processes of the brain creates subjective experience/thought. Our thought-content has not been empirically verified but we know thoughts are real since we all experience them and the fact that science itself would not even exists if it were no 'thinkers' to develope it.
Worse yet, we find that our thoughts can even influence matter (ie brain matter) as shown in classical research done by Dr. Jeffrey Swartz on neuroplasticity. This is a huge blow to materialism and of course favors a non-materialistc aspect of the mind.

Shall I take your advice and apply it to Scientology? Throw thousands of dollars at them, join the [strike]pyramid scheme[/strike] religion, before doing research?

I invite people to research all they want. But you have to start somewhere, and if where you start you find evidence, then most likely you will stay there and build from there. In my view, not all religions can be true since there are some mutually exclusive claims. Perhaps there can be some superficial truths amongst all religions but nothing beyond that point.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 65 by OpenYourEyes]

cientists can not explain how the electrochemical processes of the brain creates subjective experience/thought. Our thought-content has not been empirically verified but we know thoughts are real since we all experience them and the fact that science itself would not even exists if it were no 'thinkers' to develope it.
Worse yet, we find that our thoughts can even influence matter (ie brain matter) as shown in classical research done by Dr. Jeffrey Swartz on neuroplasticity. This is a huge blow to materialism and of course favors a non-materialistc aspect of the mind.

This does nothing at all to verify any claims that Christianity makes. At best, at absolute best, you should say "I can't explain thoughts".
You're doing a god of the gaps here, where you see something that science cannot explain (yet), and jumping to "God-did-it" as the answer, and not just any god, but the god of a specific religion.

I invite people to research all they want.

No you don't. You said earlier that Jesus, the main focus of your religion, does not teach to do research prior to joining your religion. If you are honestly inviting people to do research, then this means you are going against what you said earlier Jesus taught.
Whose advice should I go for? Yours, where you say to do research...or Jesus's, where research is not mandated? Shouldn't I go for what Jesus says over anyone else, including you?

[Danmark]

I can not offer you a precise amount of time and depth, and besides this would vary from person-to-person. Since we're dealing with research, I will at least say that the research should be about the same or more than what would be required for a research paper. Each reason or objection that causes doubt should be handled accordingly, although other things besides research can be done, as well.

You say that like believers have done enough research to fill a paper before signing up for Christianity. What do you say to the suggestion that one is required to completed ones research, which should be along the same lines as when you'd complete a good research paper, before allowing to become a Christian?

The requirements for joining Christianity are already defined by Christ, and people join out of faith and not reason. However, I will say that there are plenty of former atheists who do the research before joining and they find that Christianity makes a compelling case; Lee Strobel and otseng comes to mind. So your suggestion is already being followed by some atheists but it's not a requirement according Jesus's standards.

I am amused that Lee Strobel gets brought up as some kind of authority. He is almost as bad as Josh McDowel. Strobel is a journalist, yet tries to pose as a lawyer when he pitches his softballs to himself.

[KenRU]

The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections.
....

This is certainly not my experience. I have no idea how you could come up with this, other than it reflects your personal perspective. You have offered no objective facts to support this. I'll offer some that show the opposite is true.

Many atheists have read the entire Bible, used to be preachers, Sunday school teachers, or missionaries, were raised in Christian families and attended church all of their lives until their mid-twenties or later. They left their faith when they realized the Bible was just written by men, had many conflicts and contradictions, and was full of false prophesy, such as the prediction Christ would return by about 100 CE.

Many people simply studied their way out of their faith by reading about the Bible from external sources, including sources intended to strength their faith. We see this scenario play out in dozens of books written by former Christians. The most consistent thing I have seen is that exposure to the Bible and Christians and a general education is the most surefire way to lose one's faith. The ultimate irony is the pharisaical hypocrisy that Jesus preached against is displayed by people calling themselves 'Christians.'

I find just the opposite of what you claim is true. Most Christians do not understand their own faith, they just go to church because they've always done so and they get comfort there or they like the social aspect. Then they get defensive about it and cheer for it the way the cheer for their favorite sports team. They remain because of inertia, not knowledge.

I can document this by reference to how religious affiliation correlates with the country one is raised in. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country

My experience is that people remain with the faith of their youth because they do not
Open Their Eyes.

I'd like to echo and reinforce what Danmark says here, as it not only reflects somewhat my experience, it also reflects what I see in my social circle.

I was raised Catholic and in my early 20's I decided to learn more about science and religion. So, in college, I took courses in Anthropology, Evolution, The Four Gospels, and Religions of The Western World.

Two things were very clear to me afterwards. 1) Science knew a helluva lot more than my CCD classes and priets taught me. and 2) religion was entirely man made (my own conclusion, not one preached to me by any professor).

To me, it is VERY telling that most people never leave the faith they were brought up in.

As Danmark said, it is indeed because they never questioned (or opened their eyes, lol). Those I know who are religious, rarely question anything of what they were taught as a child, or about their faith. And those who are no longer religious absolutely did.

As the saying goes: Read the bible. We need more atheists.

-all the best,

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 65 by OpenYourEyes]

Scientists can not explain how the electrochemical processes of the brain creates subjective experience/thought. Our thought-content has not been empirically verified but we know thoughts are real since we all experience them and the fact that science itself would not even exists if it were no 'thinkers' to develope it.
Worse yet, we find that our thoughts can even influence matter (ie brain matter) as shown in classical research done by Dr. Jeffrey Swartz on neuroplasticity. This is a huge blow to materialism and of course favors a non-materialistc aspect of the mind.

This does nothing at all to verify any claims that Christianity makes. At best, at absolute best, you should say "I can't explain thoughts".
You're doing a god of the gaps here, where you see something that science cannot explain (yet), and jumping to "God-did-it" as the answer, and not just any god, but the god of a specific religion.

Thoughts, especially visual thoughts, being non-material is not a god-of-the-gaps explanation and I find the presumption of materialism/naturalism just as fallacious. The mind being nonmaterial is not just a long-standing concept but it also just happens to be a probable conclusion given that we have the ability and knowledge to observe if it were physical but yet we haven't been able to do so. As a simple example, if I told you there was a bug on your shirt. You looked and looked but could not find it, and you had done all that was required to do to find it, would you not be justified in concluding that there is no bug? Or would I be justified in saying that you haven't found it yet (and keep telling you that for some indefinite amount of time) GIVEN the knowledge, technology (or ability), and experience that you had to find the bug if one were on your shirt?!

Just a few more quick points:
- The mind being non-material is one of the claims of Christianity and the reasoning and research I referenced supports that claim.

- I don't know of any valid scientific arguments for God's existence, but Christian theists usually use facts from various scientific fields to form a probable argument.

- You will also not find any one argument that proves the Christian God's existence, let alone any god in general. Christian theists usually have a series of arguments that when put together they form a cumulative case for the existence of the Christian God.