Hell

[Grayson]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

[Cathar1950]

Many of the attributes given to YHWH were once the attributes of El and Baal among others. David even named one of his sons after the god.
If you call him god how you going to know the difference or who is right or which is the right one? Eve was once the goddess and mother of all living. It just is not as simple as you try to make it out to be. Maybe you don't have a choice.

[Aristarkos]

Many of the attributes given to YHWH were once the attributes of El and Baal among others. David even named one of his sons after the god.
If you call him god how you going to know the difference or who is right or which is the right one? Eve was once the goddess and mother of all living. It just is not as simple as you try to make it out to be. Maybe you don't have a choice.

Well, the God I am referring to has nothing to do with any ancient text ... all of which I believe are really just written by people. If God exists, I believe there is not much anyone can really know about God. Based on the existence of a universe that allows for the possibility of life, and the excellence of the Way of Universal Love, I believe that God would be extremely loving.

HELL? JUST SAY NO!

[chachynga]

chachynga:

How could God, without putting an end to all that was evil and bad and his enemy's.... become all in all with his people... ?

After all the wicked are destroyed, and Christ has destroyed Death, those that are clothed in Christ, i.e. christ like, will see the Father as he is without any veil, he will be all in all.

How is Paul the liar a source of truth?
He couldn’t even get the Moses covering right.
Can you really even read?

Paul the Liar ?

How so?

More correctly, Paul the hard to understand, especially for the immature and unwise.

Yeah, I know, Thak You chachynga!

I'm right as usual.

[Cathar1950]

Robert H. Eisenman makes a good argument that Paul was the liar in the dead sea scrolls. Pauls message and Gospel was not the one held by the Jerusalem church, at least that is what Paul say. He doesn't really even mention Jesus the Nazarene but a cosmic christ of his imagination and visions living within him.

More correctly, Paul the hard to understand, especially for the immature and unwise.

Paul is incoherent. If you think you understand Paul you either lack wisdom or maturity. Paul like to puff himself up and blow his own horn.
You are neither right or interesting.

[smokeyparkin]

I believe there is not much anyone can really know about God. Based on the existence of a universe that allows for the possibility of life, and the excellence of the Way of Universal Love, I believe that God would be extremely loving.

Couldn't of put it any better myself..

Go On My Son!!!!!

[Easyrider]

Robert H. Eisenman makes a good argument that Paul was the liar in the dead sea scrolls. Pauls message and Gospel was not the one held by the Jerusalem church, at least that is what Paul say. He doesn't really even mention Jesus the Nazarene but a cosmic christ of his imagination and visions living within him.

More hubris. Jesus was Christ and divine in the Gospels, and prophesied as God as far back as the Old Testament.

[achilles12604]

Hi everyone. I am brand new to this forum. I recently have been debating with atheists on yahoo forums but after a lot of abuse and attacks one of the moderators (also an atheist) suggested coming here.

ANYWAY - As for the topic of hell and if we are to blame, I hold a view that I have not yet heard anyone else claim before we discussed it.

I think Hell is necessary. It had to be created. Humans will continue to exist after we die. Now, if someone dies and he or she does not wish for God to be part of their existence, then they can not go to heaven. In point of fact they probably would not want to go to heaven. Because god is totally holy and jealous and nothing that is not subject to him can be in his presence, a human or soul that does not wish to be subject to him CAN not be in his presence. But then where would it go.

The answer is hell. That is a place that is totally devoid of God's presence. This is the only place that a soul that wishes to run its own existence can go because it is the only place where its self-existence does not conflict with God's perfection and total superiority.

Therefore I think hell is simply a place created so that souls that did not want to be subject to God would have a place to go. It was necessary due to free will.

On a side note I also do not think it is full of fire and lava and those who are there will be burned in a fiery lake forever. I do however think that existence that is completely devoid of God's presence, would be totally and unimaginably hopeless, painful, pointless and beyond our most horrible dreams. Hell is total and complete isolation away from everything so that the soul could be "God" of itself. The original sin.

[McCulloch]

Hi everyone. I am brand new to this forum. I recently have been debating with atheists on yahoo forums but after a lot of abuse and attacks one of the moderators (also an atheist) suggested coming here.

Welcome

I think Hell is necessary. It had to be created. Humans will continue to exist after we die.

How do you know that?

Now, if someone dies and he or she does not wish for God to be part of their existence, then they can not go to heaven. In point of fact they probably would not want to go to heaven.

Because God is there?

Because god is totally holy and jealous and nothing that is not subject to him can be in his presence, a human or soul that does not wish to be subject to him CAN not be in his presence.

Can you provide evidence to this assertion? I can site a number of passages of Scripture which show that God was in the presence of those in rebellion to His will.

But then where would it go[?]

The answer is hell. That is a place that is totally devoid of God's presence. This is the only place that a soul that wishes to run its own existence can go because it is the only place where its self-existence does not conflict with God's perfection and total superiority.

Then your concept of God does not include Omnipresence? And your definition of hell seems to mean a kind of God-free default, rather than the biblical fire and brimstone eternal torment.

Therefore I think hell is simply a place created so that souls that did not want to be subject to God would have a place to go. It was necessary due to free will.

It was not necessary. There would have been other options available to an omnibenevolent omnipotent God.

On a side note I also do not think it is full of fire and lava and those who are there will be burned in a fiery lake forever. I do however think that existence that is completely devoid of God's presence, would be totally and unimaginably hopeless, painful, pointless and beyond our most horrible dreams. Hell is total and complete isolation away from everything so that the soul could be "God" of itself. The original sin.

And this is somehow better than fire and brimstone?

[Aristarkos]

Welcome, achilles12604.

So, to maintain freedom of choice, hell is for those that do not choose God in the afterlife. So what information about God and the afterlife do you think is made available by God (or other beings in the afterlife) before a person makes this choice? Do you get a brochure at the pearly gates? Does there have to be only two choices?

[achilles12604]

I think Hell is necessary. It had to be created. Humans will continue to exist after we die.

How do you know that?

I said I think. This is an area of Theology, not science. Therefore your question is phrased incorrectly. You should have asked, "Why do you think that?" Also your use of the word "that" gives me pause. Which sentence is the one you are referring to as "that". I have different reasons for thinking that hell is necessary, that it had to be created and that humans will continue to exist. I judging from the context of my original piece I think that I have at least in part answered why I think Hell is neccessary and why it had to be created. Therefore, I think that only real question that remains is why do I think humans will continue to exist, so I will focus on that.

Why I think humans will continue to exist after death encompasses a few different areas, some of which can be examined and some can not. For the areas that can be examined, I turn to the bible and its teachings. The bible speaks many times of "eternal life" or life after death. This would necessitate humans or at least a conscious part of our being (our soul if you will) continuing to exist. Near death experiences of individuals is another area which can be examined to some extent although it is possible that they are all totally lying in which case it can not be examined at all. But, giving the masses that have expierienced such an event the benifit of the doubt in so much as honesty is concerned, we can examine their statements concerning what happened to them for the short time that they were clinically dead.

For the areas that can not be examined, I have expeienced Jesus personally and I know the feeling of the power of the holy spirit and that has left me with total certainty about life after death. Having been through Iraq and now being a police officer, I have had and will continue to have many brushes with death until it finally catches me. However, during the close calls I have had, I felt such peace that it goes far beyond what I can describe. Since I am unable to extend what I have felt in the past and feel now to you for you to experience. Therefore, this is a point of evidence for me but I can not "use" it in any way to convince you. This is evidence that exists but that can not be examined.

Now, if someone dies and he or she does not wish for God to be part of their existence, then they can not go to heaven. In point of fact they probably would not want to go to heaven.

Because God is there?

Your question open up a whole separate can of worms which is applicable to the general forum topic but is not applicable to the topic of Hell. Therefore, I will save the existence of God for another time and place.

Because god is totally holy and jealous and nothing that is not subject to him can be in his presence, a human or soul that does not wish to be subject to him CAN not be in his presence.

Can you provide evidence to this assertion? I can site a number of passages of Scripture which show that God was in the presence of those in rebellion to His will.

I am very interested about your passages of scripture. I have found that the vast majority of the time when an athiest quotes scripture, they either take a small section of out context or else quote the passage incorrectly. I can also quote a few scriptures that speaks of the jealousy of God and hs total purity and the requirement of those around him to be pure. Paul speaks on this subject a lot as does John in his revelation. Old testament attastation on the subject can be found in a few different books including Psalms.

I am very interested in any verses which point to God the father being in the presence of evil in his heavenly realm. Please feel free to present these pieces.

But then where would it go[?]

The answer is hell. That is a place that is totally devoid of God's presence. This is the only place that a soul that wishes to run its own existence can go because it is the only place where its self-existence does not conflict with God's perfection and total superiority.

Then your concept of God does not include Omnipresence? And your definition of hell seems to mean a kind of God-free default, rather than the biblical fire and brimstone eternal torment.

Taking your first point first, the Omnipresence of God can not be limited by man or any other force in the universe. However, God can limit himself in any way and at any time he wishes. Therefore, God can remove his grace, and his presence from Hell if he wishes. This has no effect on his omnipotence because he can still be aware of the individuals in hell without extending his presence to them as well. You are probably familiar with a similar question, "Can God create a rock so heavy he can not lift it?" Well as far as the philosophical banter of questions like these go, I simply state that for a universe bound mortal to ask a question like this and then say they have won based on the laws of physics is rather smug. How does the questioner know that laws of physics even exist outside the universe? What if the concept of "heavy" really does not even exist? What laws exist outside of our own time and space? No one can answer these questions and so until and unless they answer my questions, I feel no need to answer theirs.

As far as the "fire and brimstone" I think this is probably the most misunderstood area of Hell that has ever been discussed. I find myself battling fellow Christians about this subject.

First, fire and flame are used throughout the whole bible as a metaphor for God's holiness and purity. However, during the middle ages and until about the time of the reformation, the church preached a "fire and brimstone" message to inspire fear into their parishioners. Let me go on record right here and say that I do not agree with a TON that the church has done historically and also do not agree with a lot of what the current church is doing. A true and faithful church is very hard to find these days. This is one reason I do not go to church. I think that their preaching of fire and brimstone hell burning the sinners for all eternity in a literal lake of fire, is both wrong and counterproductive. To their credit I think their intentions were noble, but their method and interpretations were flat wrong.

As I explain in the next section, fire and brimstone are in no way needed for hell to be a place that individuals should wish to avoid. The simple lack of God's presence will be so unimaginably horrible that by itself, it will be more than punishment enough. To be in an area without his purity and love and constant closeness, will cause much unhappiness. For an example (which falls far short) this would be like a man being put into total solitary confinement, in total blackness, forever. And my example does not even include the feelings that a soul will have without God's presence. This is what I think hell will be.

[

quote="achilles12604"]Therefore I think hell is simply a place created so that souls that did not want to be subject to God would have a place to go. It was necessary due to free will.

It was not necessary. There would have been other options available to an omnibenevolent omnipotent God. [/quote]

I would be curious what other options you are suggesting. Perhaps you are thinking that blinking the sinner out of existence is an option. Well perhaps it is an option. But then God would be destroying something which he created and which he loves and which was "good" at one time. This may be something God is not willing to do. Also, blinking the sinner out of existence would indirectly contradict free will.

God gave men free will to chose to be their own God's and refuse to follow him. However, as with all life, actions have consequences. Just as our justice system must have consequences for those who do not follow the rules, God has consequences for not following his rules. For God not to allow free will and then provide total justice would cause him to be impotent. Since God can not be impotent, he must both present and allow consequence for men's free will choices.

On a side note I also do not think it is full of fire and lava and those who are there will be burned in a fiery lake forever. I do however think that existence that is completely devoid of God's presence, would be totally and unimaginably hopeless, painful, pointless and beyond our most horrible dreams. Hell is total and complete isolation away from everything so that the soul could be "God" of itself. The original sin.

And this is somehow better than fire and brimstone?

[/quote]

Does your question imply that defying God should not bring about unpleasant results? If God wished for fire and brimstone to be the punishment for defiance, then what could we say about it? What would you say to the person who was complaining that he was sentenced to 15 years in jail for raping and beating a 6 year old girl? He thinks his punishment is "cruel". What would you tell him? Really let me know what you would tell him because he is sitting right in front of me talking with some other guys about his new sentence. Working in a jail I am aware of conversations most people do not hear. Let me know what to tell him.