Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #531

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tcg wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:47 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:43 am
Why no Videos for the actual resurrection...?
Video technology wasn't developed until the 20th century. Jesus supposedly resurrected in the 1st. Just a hunch, but that may explain it.


Tcg
What ???

Omniimpotent god too dumb and dumber to provide the smallest part of future technology for his own beloved sons first resurrectionday ???

You cant be for real! I hope for your own sake you're joking!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Video
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #532

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:04 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:47 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:43 am
Why no Videos for the actual resurrection...?
Video technology wasn't developed until the 20th century. Jesus supposedly resurrected in the 1st. Just a hunch, but that may explain it.


Tcg
What ???

Omniimpotent god too dumb and dumber to provide the smallest part of future technology for his own beloved sons first resurrectionday ???

You cant be for real! I hope for your own sake you're joking!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Video
Of course, I'm not joking. There is no reason to accept that there is an omnipotent God or that time travel is possible. If you have verifiable evidence to provide a reason to accept both, I'll be reading.


Tcg
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #533

Post by Peterlag »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:00 am
Peterlag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:24 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:10 pm [Replying to Peterlag in post #525]
I know! Still you proved my point. If even your hearsay got blurried by silent post or bad memory, than why should anyones, even Pauls, hearsay be better?

Further, if Jesus wore his unrecognizable new ressurection-body, what did those witnesses really see?

Poor witnesses for nothing. They only witnessed at best some new christ-copycat who not even would let them witness his actual resurrection or ascension.

No wonder he didnt appear to Pilate. Pilate would have made this to him unknown man into his court Jester.
Now there are a few things that I know 100 percent for sure and one of them is this. There was no human on the face of this planet that could or would try to make the resurrected Christ into their Jester. This is one thing I know for sure.
You cannot know this either. You are only pretending to know!

First Christ said:
"Oooh - I am resurrecting, but I let no one watch! For that wouldn make sceptics believe! Or would it force everyone to believe and rob their free will of having faith?"

Then Christ said:
"Wow - I have resurrected in a glorious new body. The angels fed my old body to the dogs. How then it was a resurrection? Ask Richard Carrier! I dont know myself! I am not intelligent enough to know such complicated things. But worship me !!! Love me or I drag you to hell!
I bring the good news! The good news is that I am your savior! I will save you from myself if you give me praise!"

And then Christ said:
"I, the almighty and loving savior who loves to drag people to eternal hell better hide from ol' Pontius Pilate. Someone told him what I said and now he wants to make me his court jester for reasons unknown to me. Now I want to give a little scare to the emmausgang like I did to the tombwomen. Then I will let St Thomas put his finger in my hole and than I will appear to 500 in my new holy body. That will be something, The 500 will trampling over each other, while very few will get a good look. Aaand finally I will ascent to heaven, but again with no one peeking! You hear?"

Perfect court jester or not?
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #534

Post by Tcg »

Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #535

Post by Peterlag »

Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #536

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
Last edited by The Nice Centurion on Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #537

Post by Tcg »

Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
I gave you one from scripture. That is what your claim encompassed: "I see nowhere in Scripture..."


Tcg

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #538

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:00 am
Peterlag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:24 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:10 pm [Replying to Peterlag in post #525]
I know! Still you proved my point. If even your hearsay got blurried by silent post or bad memory, than why should anyones, even Pauls, hearsay be better?

Further, if Jesus wore his unrecognizable new ressurection-body, what did those witnesses really see?

Poor witnesses for nothing. They only witnessed at best some new christ-copycat who not even would let them witness his actual resurrection or ascension.

No wonder he didnt appear to Pilate. Pilate would have made this to him unknown man into his court Jester.
Now there are a few things that I know 100 percent for sure and one of them is this. There was no human on the face of this planet that could or would try to make the resurrected Christ into their Jester. This is one thing I know for sure.
You cannot know this either. You are only pretending to know!

First Christ said:
"Oooh - I am resurrecting, but I let no one watch! For that wouldn make sceptics believe! Or would it force everyone to believe and rob their free will of having faith?"

Then Christ said:
"Wow - I have resurrected in a glorious new body. The angels fed my old body to the dogs. How then it was a resurrection? Ask Richard Carrier! I dont know myself! I am not intelligent enough to know such complicated things. But worship me !!! Love me or I drag you to hell!
I bring the good news! The good news is that I am your savior! I will save you from myself if you give me praise!"

And then Christ said:
"I, the almighty and loving savior who loves to drag people to eternal hell better hide from ol' Pontius Pilate. Someone told him what I said and now he wants to make me his court jester for reasons unknown to me. Now I want to give a little scare to the emmausgang like I did to the tombwomen. Then I will let St Thomas put his finger in my hole and than I will appear to 500 in my new holy body. That will be something, The 500 will trampling over each other, while very few will get a good look. Aaand finally I will ascent to heaven, but again with no one peeking! You hear?"

Perfect court jester or not?
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
So apologetics never bother to get sceptics saved?

Thats a new one!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #539

Post by Peterlag »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:22 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
There is this:
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I'm not sure being thrown into a fiery furnace is very different than being dragged to hell.


Tcg
Can you give me one from the Epistles?
Why are you dodging the question, while implying the gospels are not good enough for you?

How about commenting above gospel verse, and than talk about epistles?
It's not dodging. I'm just smart enough to know that what is spoken in the gospels was for Israel and not the body of Christ. So I figure it does not apply to Christians if it's not in the epistles.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #540

Post by Peterlag »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:34 am
Peterlag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:00 am
Peterlag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:24 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:10 pm [Replying to Peterlag in post #525]
I know! Still you proved my point. If even your hearsay got blurried by silent post or bad memory, than why should anyones, even Pauls, hearsay be better?

Further, if Jesus wore his unrecognizable new ressurection-body, what did those witnesses really see?

Poor witnesses for nothing. They only witnessed at best some new christ-copycat who not even would let them witness his actual resurrection or ascension.

No wonder he didnt appear to Pilate. Pilate would have made this to him unknown man into his court Jester.
Now there are a few things that I know 100 percent for sure and one of them is this. There was no human on the face of this planet that could or would try to make the resurrected Christ into their Jester. This is one thing I know for sure.
You cannot know this either. You are only pretending to know!

First Christ said:
"Oooh - I am resurrecting, but I let no one watch! For that wouldn make sceptics believe! Or would it force everyone to believe and rob their free will of having faith?"

Then Christ said:
"Wow - I have resurrected in a glorious new body. The angels fed my old body to the dogs. How then it was a resurrection? Ask Richard Carrier! I dont know myself! I am not intelligent enough to know such complicated things. But worship me !!! Love me or I drag you to hell!
I bring the good news! The good news is that I am your savior! I will save you from myself if you give me praise!"

And then Christ said:
"I, the almighty and loving savior who loves to drag people to eternal hell better hide from ol' Pontius Pilate. Someone told him what I said and now he wants to make me his court jester for reasons unknown to me. Now I want to give a little scare to the emmausgang like I did to the tombwomen. Then I will let St Thomas put his finger in my hole and than I will appear to 500 in my new holy body. That will be something, The 500 will trampling over each other, while very few will get a good look. Aaand finally I will ascent to heaven, but again with no one peeking! You hear?"

Perfect court jester or not?
I don't think Christ or I care one way or the other if Skeptics believe.
I see nowhere in Scripture where people are dragged to hell. Catholics teach that.
Salvation is available for those who want it. They don't need to convince anybody.
So apologetics never bother to get sceptics saved?

Thats a new one!
It's not a new one. I try too. But if they don't want it or are not interested. Then we move on like the Scriptures say... dust off your shoes and move on. We don't need to try to drag people over the finish line.

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