Dear Christians of all flavor(s),
I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?
It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".
That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.
I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.
For Debate:
Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?
Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
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Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #521For me faith came later. I did not know what was the truth (and to a degree I still don't). But I was on the hunt for it the truth. In order to have faith in something you first have to believe it. After my initial "discovery" of God I realized that I knew nothing other than He is. I didn't have faith until I came to the conclusion that Jesus teachings were words to live by. I had trust in Him so eventually came to accept even the things that He said that at the time sounded a little weird, like the concept of the Trinity, or the consecration of a host because He said "This is my body."
Certainly that there are some who a handed a book of what to believe and they believe without question.
I find your use of 'some' to be a bit dishonest. Most religious people were born into their religion and religion be geography is a real thing. I do get why you would try to not acknowledge this.
Of course I acknowledge that! Of course most people remain in the faith in which they are brought up. It is reinforced by people all around them that believe the same thing.
And that is why religions flurish. Due to parents telling their children what to believe. Either directly or by bringing them to a church to have the church tell them. When my children were younger, I litterally could have convinced them that I hung the moon. [/quote]A belief has to make sense to the individual, not be handed to them and told "Here! You have to believe this.!"
Back on the "parents shouldn't teach their children" silliness. Let me ask you a question, would you deliberately lie to your children? You say that you could have convinced them that you hung the moon in place. Would you ever deliberately tell them something like that? I think that the response by 99.999999% percent of the world population would say "No. I would teach them the truth." What if a parent of ancient days when asked where did the universe come from and answered them with the ancient Babylonian concept of the universe because that is what they sincerely believed? Would they be lying? Of course not.
They would be telling the truth as they knew it. Would they be doing their children a disservice? No. They were sincerely trying to answer their child's question. Why then is it so difficult for you to see that there is no attempt to "indoctrinate" children because parents teach them what they believe to be true?
But one of the reasons I rejected Islam as my guide was the fact that in a number of areas if a person leaves the Islamic faith they could be put to death. In my mind that has no place in any religion.
I am not denying that could be true. But in my situation I was on the hunt for truth. And a concept of killing someone because they didn't believe the same as I did would sound extremely alien to me no matter where (or when) I was born. There are some universal truths, and in my mind that is one of them.Again, religion by geography. Had you been born in Iran, such a notion is something you would likely expect to find in a religion. Since you were not, it is an odd concept for you.
I find that as an odd concept as well, which is why I do not believe it. I am not denying that a number of man-made distortions have crept into what should be a clear teaching of love. But the distortions to the truth that men have made, whether deliberately or by accident, that are found in most religions should not distract anyone from searching for the REAL truth. As St. John wrote: "God is love. He who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."You know what I find to be an odd concept?
A god that would give humans free will, to either believe in it and get a heaven, or to disbelieve in it and then get eternal torment. What an odd free will concept, I wonder what someone born in India would think?
Which is why religions have the greatest success when they get you when your young and impressionable.The individual has to be free to think differently from what the "book" says.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #522Of course you will see it that way. But the geographical distribution of religious faiths speaks to indoctrination as the major influence in formulating beliefs. It goes beyond simple parental guidance, like the concerted efforts to introduce religion into every aspect of a child's life with rituals, Jesus camps, proselytising groups infiltrating schools and so on. It is important that nothing is question while the beliefs are inculcated into vulnerable minds thus making it harder for anything to be questioned later. If that occurs, it is nipped in the bud by the threat of shunning and the like. And that's how it is propagated. No rational analysis involved at all. The majority just stick with the program while a few try their best to retrofit some sort of rationalisation. But the belief itself is never up for scrutiny or challenge. Whatever PEW had to say, there is no denying the decline in Christianity in former bastions like the US.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:18 am That has always been one of the silliest arguments atheists make. Even when I was an atheist I saw how ridiculous it was. Are you actually saying that parents have no right to teach their children anything? Let them learn to read and write on their own? 'Go ahead, play with fire!' Obviously any parent has the right to teach their children what they have found to be true. Not to do so would be poor parenting. When the child is old enough to think for themselves then comes the time for questioning things. This is how it should be. A person's faith cannot be, as the song says "Faith of Our Fathers". Do you think you are unique in that you began to question the faith that you were brought up in? Makes you feel as though you are a rebel, doesn't it? I hate to disillusion you but everyone goes through that stage. A person's faith cannot be his father's faith, the individual has to embrace it on their own. Even the vast majority of those who enter atheism in their teens eventually come to a degree of belief. That was confirmed by a PEW study.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #523Having never experienced any of that in my youth I do not know what such groups are teaching. But I have to question as to whether or not you are exaggerating things quite a bit. Certainly I am familiar with cults which are way out there like you describe, but I doubt any main-stream Christian faith is into that sort of indoctrination in any heavy way. And yes I am familiar with faith-sharing activities such as a class of kids visiting a nursing home or an orphanage. I know of some Christian high schools which sponsor mission trips to third-world countries to try to improve the living conditions of the poor. But those are examples of teaching putting faith into action not the kind of indoctrination you speak of. But no matter what you are actually speaking about are you actually advocating that parents should not be allowed to teach their children faith-based ideals? That is the essential question.brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:41 pmOf course you will see it that way. But the geographical distribution of religious faiths speaks to indoctrination as the major influence in formulating beliefs. It goes beyond simple parental guidance, like the concerted efforts to introduce religion into every aspect of a child's life with rituals, Jesus camps, proselytising groups infiltrating schools and so on. It is important that nothing is question while the beliefs are inculcated into vulnerable minds thus making it harder for anything to be questioned later. If that occurs, it is nipped in the bud by the threat of shunning and the like. And that's how it is propagated. No rational analysis involved at all. The majority just stick with the program while a few try their best to retrofit some sort of rationalisation. But the belief itself is never up for scrutiny or challenge. Whatever PEW had to say, there is no denying the decline in Christianity in former bastions like the US.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:18 am That has always been one of the silliest arguments atheists make. Even when I was an atheist I saw how ridiculous it was. Are you actually saying that parents have no right to teach their children anything? Let them learn to read and write on their own? 'Go ahead, play with fire!' Obviously any parent has the right to teach their children what they have found to be true. Not to do so would be poor parenting. When the child is old enough to think for themselves then comes the time for questioning things. This is how it should be. A person's faith cannot be, as the song says "Faith of Our Fathers". Do you think you are unique in that you began to question the faith that you were brought up in? Makes you feel as though you are a rebel, doesn't it? I hate to disillusion you but everyone goes through that stage. A person's faith cannot be his father's faith, the individual has to embrace it on their own. Even the vast majority of those who enter atheism in their teens eventually come to a degree of belief. That was confirmed by a PEW study.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #524That is not the essential question, much less the topic, which is what is the best case that believers can make for Christianity.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:42 pmHaving never experienced any of that in my youth I do not know what such groups are teaching. But I have to question as to whether or not you are exaggerating things quite a bit. Certainly I am familiar with cults which are way out there like you describe, but I doubt any main-stream Christian faith is into that sort of indoctrination in any heavy way. And yes I am familiar with faith-sharing activities such as a class of kids visiting a nursing home or an orphanage. I know of some Christian high schools which sponsor mission trips to third-world countries to try to improve the living conditions of the poor. But those are examples of teaching putting faith into action not the kind of indoctrination you speak of. But no matter what you are actually speaking about are you actually advocating that parents should not be allowed to teach their children faith-based ideals? That is the essential question.brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:41 pmOf course you will see it that way. But the geographical distribution of religious faiths speaks to indoctrination as the major influence in formulating beliefs. It goes beyond simple parental guidance, like the concerted efforts to introduce religion into every aspect of a child's life with rituals, Jesus camps, proselytising groups infiltrating schools and so on. It is important that nothing is question while the beliefs are inculcated into vulnerable minds thus making it harder for anything to be questioned later. If that occurs, it is nipped in the bud by the threat of shunning and the like. And that's how it is propagated. No rational analysis involved at all. The majority just stick with the program while a few try their best to retrofit some sort of rationalisation. But the belief itself is never up for scrutiny or challenge. Whatever PEW had to say, there is no denying the decline in Christianity in former bastions like the US.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:18 am That has always been one of the silliest arguments atheists make. Even when I was an atheist I saw how ridiculous it was. Are you actually saying that parents have no right to teach their children anything? Let them learn to read and write on their own? 'Go ahead, play with fire!' Obviously any parent has the right to teach their children what they have found to be true. Not to do so would be poor parenting. When the child is old enough to think for themselves then comes the time for questioning things. This is how it should be. A person's faith cannot be, as the song says "Faith of Our Fathers". Do you think you are unique in that you began to question the faith that you were brought up in? Makes you feel as though you are a rebel, doesn't it? I hate to disillusion you but everyone goes through that stage. A person's faith cannot be his father's faith, the individual has to embrace it on their own. Even the vast majority of those who enter atheism in their teens eventually come to a degree of belief. That was confirmed by a PEW study.
The question here is whether Christianity is any more valid than other religions and perhaps whether Christianity is the result of cultural indoctrination as much as other religions.
It is probably wrong and in fact impossible to prevent parents from teaching their children religion. But, by and large, national cultures do teach the national dogmas, depending on what is approved.
This isn't about who does it moore (Nobody does it better than Islam) but whether there is any difference between the peddling of the national cultural religions - Christianity, Hinduism or even Chairman idolisation as in North Korea or China. To anyone who does not already believe in Christianity or any of the others, there isn't.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #525I, obviously, do think that the lion's share of truth is found in Christianity, but not always in the way that some Christians practice it. But I found no faults in Jesus' messages of love and forgiveness.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:06 pmThat is not the essential question, much less the topic, which is what is the best case that believers can make for Christianity.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:42 pmHaving never experienced any of that in my youth I do not know what such groups are teaching. But I have to question as to whether or not you are exaggerating things quite a bit. Certainly I am familiar with cults which are way out there like you describe, but I doubt any main-stream Christian faith is into that sort of indoctrination in any heavy way. And yes I am familiar with faith-sharing activities such as a class of kids visiting a nursing home or an orphanage. I know of some Christian high schools which sponsor mission trips to third-world countries to try to improve the living conditions of the poor. But those are examples of teaching putting faith into action not the kind of indoctrination you speak of. But no matter what you are actually speaking about are you actually advocating that parents should not be allowed to teach their children faith-based ideals? That is the essential question.brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:41 pmOf course you will see it that way. But the geographical distribution of religious faiths speaks to indoctrination as the major influence in formulating beliefs. It goes beyond simple parental guidance, like the concerted efforts to introduce religion into every aspect of a child's life with rituals, Jesus camps, proselytising groups infiltrating schools and so on. It is important that nothing is question while the beliefs are inculcated into vulnerable minds thus making it harder for anything to be questioned later. If that occurs, it is nipped in the bud by the threat of shunning and the like. And that's how it is propagated. No rational analysis involved at all. The majority just stick with the program while a few try their best to retrofit some sort of rationalisation. But the belief itself is never up for scrutiny or challenge. Whatever PEW had to say, there is no denying the decline in Christianity in former bastions like the US.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:18 am That has always been one of the silliest arguments atheists make. Even when I was an atheist I saw how ridiculous it was. Are you actually saying that parents have no right to teach their children anything? Let them learn to read and write on their own? 'Go ahead, play with fire!' Obviously any parent has the right to teach their children what they have found to be true. Not to do so would be poor parenting. When the child is old enough to think for themselves then comes the time for questioning things. This is how it should be. A person's faith cannot be, as the song says "Faith of Our Fathers". Do you think you are unique in that you began to question the faith that you were brought up in? Makes you feel as though you are a rebel, doesn't it? I hate to disillusion you but everyone goes through that stage. A person's faith cannot be his father's faith, the individual has to embrace it on their own. Even the vast majority of those who enter atheism in their teens eventually come to a degree of belief. That was confirmed by a PEW study.
The question here is whether Christianity is any more valid than other religions and perhaps whether Christianity is the result of cultural indoctrination as much as other religions.
It is probably wrong and in fact impossible to prevent parents from teaching their children religion. But, by and large, national cultures do teach the national dogmas, depending on what is approved.
This isn't about who does it moore (Nobody does it better than Islam) but whether there is any difference between the peddling of the national cultural religions - Christianity, Hinduism or even Chairman idolisation as in North Korea or China. To anyone who does not already believe in Christianity or any of the others, there isn't.
But it is getting to the point here in the U.S. where State control over what is taught in public schools, the wide spread senseless violence essentially sponsored by one political party that I have a difficult time recognizing the country I grew up in. It feels as though I stepped into the pages of "1984" and wonder if I should be loving Big Brother. I can do without the rat cage strapped to my head.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #526Without wanting to get into politics, I'll just say that a lion's share of western thought of the time, and of the present time, is found in Christianity, but that does not make Christianity truth.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #527<snipped your testimony>
n·doc·tri·nate
Learn to pronounce
verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
Want to accept the Trinty or not? There are options.
Want hell to be everlasting, or annihilation? There are options.
Want to accept the gays or not? There are options.
All you have to do is pick one and claim you reached it by searching for the REAL truth!
I'm sure I could come up with scenarios where I would lie to my children.
Nope, but at one time, they were young and impressionable enough that I could have convinced them that I did. My point was that this is the time in a childs life when their religious parents are telling them that there is a god that loves them so much, as to send them to a heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell... or whaterver beliefs come with whatever religion is being pushed on to the children. It is happening at a point in the childs life where they will believe just about anything an authority tells them.You say that you could have convinced them that you hung the moon in place. Would you ever deliberately tell them something like that?
You are correct.What if a parent of ancient days when asked where did the universe come from and answered them with the ancient Babylonian concept of the universe because that is what they sincerely believed? Would they be lying? Of course not.
Nope. They would be telling a falsehood that they believe to be true. Their words are false whether they believe them or not.They would be telling the truth as they knew it.
Yes. Would you like your children to believe in false things? What is the perfect number of false things you would like your children to believe in? Wouldn't you strive for that number to be zero?Would they be doing their children a disservice?
You are just trying to justify their motives. Their motives were just, but they still unknowingly did a disservice, so the answer is still yes. Again, how many false things do you strive to believe in? The more the better? Surely not.No. They were sincerely trying to answer their child's question.
Because I don't think we should strive to accept beliefs uncritically. We could end up believing all sorts of untruths even if the motive is just.Why then is it so difficult for you to see that there is no attempt to "indoctrinate" children because parents teach them what they believe to be true?
n·doc·tri·nate
Learn to pronounce
verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
So if it is not a geography thing, you seem to be suggesting that you are just better or more moral then those that are born in a part of the world where such a belief is not so alien to them. What makes you inherently more moral then those born where such beliefs are not so alien? I would have thought it a geography thing, but you argue otherwise.I am not denying that could be true. But in my situation I was on the hunt for truth. And a concept of killing someone because they didn't believe the same as I did would sound extremely alien to me no matter where (or when) I was born. There are some universal truths, and in my mind that is one of them.
There is no mechanism to know what is truth and what is distortion. This is why we have nearly 40,000 different denomination of Christianity.I am not denying that a number of man-made distortions have crept into what should be a clear teaching of love. But the distortions to the truth that men have made, whether deliberately or by accident, that are found in most religions should not distract anyone from searching for the REAL truth.
Want to accept the Trinty or not? There are options.
Want hell to be everlasting, or annihilation? There are options.
Want to accept the gays or not? There are options.
All you have to do is pick one and claim you reached it by searching for the REAL truth!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #528Let me rephrase my question. Certainly I can think of scenarios where I would lie to my daughter when she was very young as well, but would you deliberately lie to your children about something which you b]believed[/b] was essential to their lives? For example would you ever tell them that it was okay to play with a loaded gun? Did you tell your children when they asked about God that "there is no God" or did you tell them the truth and say "I do not know?" If you said "There is no God" were you not doing the exact same indoctrination you accuse religious people of?Clownboat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:01 am <snipped your testimony>I'm sure I could come up with scenarios where I would lie to my children.
Nope, but at one time, they were young and impressionable enough that I could have convinced them that I did. My point was that this is the time in a childs life when their religious parents are telling them that there is a god that loves them so much, as to send them to a heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell... or whaterver beliefs come with whatever religion is being pushed on to the children. It is happening at a point in the childs life where they will believe just about anything an authority tells them.You say that you could have convinced them that you hung the moon in place. Would you ever deliberately tell them something like that?
You are correct.What if a parent of ancient days when asked where did the universe come from and answered them with the ancient Babylonian concept of the universe because that is what they sincerely believed? Would they be lying? Of course not.
Nope. They would be telling a falsehood that they believe to be true. Their words are false whether they believe them or not. [/quote]They would be telling the truth as they knew it.
Yes. Would you like your children to believe in false things? What is the perfect number of false things you would like your children to believe in? Wouldn't you strive for that number to be zero?Would they be doing their children a disservice?
You are just trying to justify their motives. Their motives were just, but they still unknowingly did a disservice, so the answer is still yes. Again, how many false things do you strive to believe in? The more the better? Surely not.No. They were sincerely trying to answer their child's question.
Because I don't think we should strive to accept beliefs uncritically. We could end up believing all sorts of untruths even if the motive is just.Why then is it so difficult for you to see that there is no attempt to "indoctrinate" children because parents teach them what they believe to be true?
n·doc·tri·nate
Learn to pronounce
verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. [/quote]
That may be true from a 21st Century perspective, but there is no way in the world that a person from 3500 years ago would think that. In another 3500 years would the people of that day be telling their children that the people of the 21st Century who told their children a present day concept of the universe actually lied to their children because they taught them what they might see as an "ancient' concept of the universe? Of course not!
So if it is not a geography thing, you seem to be suggesting that you are just better or more moral then those that are born in a part of the world where such a belief is not so alien to them. What makes you inherently more moral then those born where such beliefs are not so alien? I would have thought it a geography thing, but you argue otherwise. [/quote]I am not denying that could be true. But in my situation I was on the hunt for truth. And a concept of killing someone because they didn't believe the same as I did would sound extremely alien to me no matter where (or when) I was born. There are some universal truths, and in my mind that is one of them.
As I said I believe that there is such a thing as "universal truths". That no matter where you go in the universe all intelligent people will hold them to be true. While the "Independence Day" aliens create a good story, I do not believe that any race would willfully with a clear conscience seek the destruction of another race. Do you seriously believe that none of the Germans who killed millions of Jews and Catholics in the death camps did so with a clear conscience because they were brought up in a society that said it was okay? Why did the Nazis lie about the true function of those camps? Why were so many German citizens who were told the truth after the war weep bitterly with sorrow at what their nation had done? Is my morality at a higher state than others? While it may be higher than those who teach such things as the murder of unbelievers I truly believe that everyone has a conscience that tells the right from wrong, unless they have so blackened it with evil that they have grown immune to its call. I do not believe that having a working conscience is a matter of geography.
There is no mechanism to know what is truth and what is distortion. This is why we have nearly 40,000 different denomination of Christianity.I am not denying that a number of man-made distortions have crept into what should be a clear teaching of love. But the distortions to the truth that men have made, whether deliberately or by accident, that are found in most religions should not distract anyone from searching for the REAL truth.
Want to accept the Trinty or not? There are options.
Want hell to be everlasting, or annihilation? There are options.
Want to accept the gays or not? There are options.
All you have to do is pick one and claim you reached it by searching for the REAL truth!
[/quote]
I think I explained what the words in the Bible which a translated as "hell" actually mean. Nor are those the only words which are mistranslated. The concept of "hell" as a place for eternal punishment for sin did not become so popular until the 1820's with the Protestant religious revival. While some religions know this it has been so engrained into the psyche of people that it would prove difficult to eradicate. But its eradication must occur because that concept is so alien to the teachings of Christ. I did search for the truth. And when I say that I saw Catholicism as the greatest example of truth I did not say that I agree with everything which the Church teaches. There are minor issues that I see as false, and despite the history of the Church and the evil which have been done by those who claim to be Catholic in various times, I believe that they have preserved to this day the teachings of love of all taught by Christ to the greatest degree. Nor do I claim to have all the answers. What is the true nature of the "Trinity"? I haven't a clue... nor does anyone else. I accept it as true because Jesus spoke of it and I have grown to trust what He has said. What is the true nature of "hell" and does it actually exist? I don't know for certain. I just know by logic that it cannot be a place of eternal punishment for sin. Should the Church completely accept gays? While the Catholic Church does to an extent I believe that this is one of the points they are missing on and there should be full acceptance. I think that homosexuals are just as capable of living in true love as heterosexuals are. But your list (and I am certain there are many more) are your attempt to find a reason NOT to believe in God because none of the things you mentioned are actually about God Himself but rather side-issues confusing to man.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #529You can rephrae it all you want, but it still fails to address what you are to be responding to.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 pm Let me rephrase my question. Certainly I can think of scenarios where I would lie to my daughter when she was very young as well, but would you deliberately lie to your children about something which you b]believed[/b] was essential to their lives? For example would you ever tell them that it was okay to play with a loaded gun? Did you tell your children when they asked about God that "there is no God" or did you tell them the truth and say "I do not know?" If you said "There is no God" were you not doing the exact same indoctrination you accuse religious people of?
Again: "It is happening at a point in the childs life where they will believe just about anything an authority tells them."
Yes, to the loaded guns. I have spent time with both of them 'playing' with loaded guns. We started with air soft. They have played with .22's while supervised of course.
I don't tell my children that there are no gods.
Can you explain why you are dodging what I'm actually saying which has to do with when humans typically learn about the gods?
That may be true from a 21st Century perspective, but there is no way in the world that a person from 3500 years ago would think that.
Then you are just being silly. Of course a person from 3500 years ago could strive to not accept beliefs uncritically. What an odd claim you made.
So if it is not a geography thing, you seem to be suggesting that you are just better or more moral then those that are born in a part of the world where such a belief is not so alien to them. What makes you inherently more moral then those born where such beliefs are not so alien? I would have thought it a geography thing, but you argue otherwise.
As I said I believe that there is such a thing as "universal truths". That no matter where you go in the universe all intelligent people will hold them to be true.
So Muslims are not intelligent. You sure you want to make that claim?
Again, we were discussing the concept of killing someone because they didn't believe the same as you did. If this is a universal truth as you claim and only intelligent people would hold them as true, that informs us that you think Muslims are unintelligent for not seeing this universal truth that you make an empty claim about there being.
Why are you telling us this? I really couldn't care less and I cannot see what it has to do with when most people are indoctrinated into the religion of their geopgraphy by trusted athority members as a children.While the "Independence Day" aliens create a good story, I do not believe that any race would willfully with a clear conscience seek the destruction of another race.
Do you seriously believe that none of the Germans who killed millions of Jews and Catholics in the death camps did so with a clear conscience because they were brought up in a society that said it was okay?
I have never made such a claim. You are all over the place.
This way! Come back!Why did the Nazis lie about the true function of those camps? Why were so many German citizens who were told the truth after the war weep bitterly with sorrow at what their nation had done?
Is my morality at a higher state than others?
I have no reason to think so.
We are right back to Muslim's being unitelligent then.While it may be higher than those who teach such things as the murder of unbelievers I truly believe that everyone has a conscience that tells the right from wrong, unless they have so blackened it with evil that they have grown immune to its call. I do not believe that having a working conscience is a matter of geography.
Copy/paste of your words: "As I said I believe that there is such a thing as "universal truths". That no matter where you go in the universe all intelligent people will hold them to be true. "
I think I explained what the words in the Bible which a translated as "hell" actually mean.
I do not trust that you know and do not consider you to be an authority.
Got it, so all the eternal punishment claims in the gospels and wailing and gnashing of teeth, which were not written in the 1800's. is just invention in the Bible, because you say so. I trust you less and less.Nor are those the only words which are mistranslated. The concept of "hell" as a place for eternal punishment for sin did not become so popular until the 1820's with the Protestant religious revival.
It seems you are just unwilling to have an honest discussion. Tip, when responding to posts, please look for question marks and try to answer those questions. I'm left here wondering if you hit your head recently as nothing you typed addressed what I said.While some religions know this it has been so engrained into the psyche of people that it would prove difficult to eradicate. But its eradication must occur because that concept is so alien to the teachings of Christ. I did search for the truth. And when I say that I saw Catholicism as the greatest example of truth I did not say that I agree with everything which the Church teaches. There are minor issues that I see as false, and despite the history of the Church and the evil which have been done by those who claim to be Catholic in various times, I believe that they have preserved to this day the teachings of love of all taught by Christ to the greatest degree. Nor do I claim to have all the answers. What is the true nature of the "Trinity"? I haven't a clue... nor does anyone else. I accept it as true because Jesus spoke of it and I have grown to trust what He has said. What is the true nature of "hell" and does it actually exist? I don't know for certain. I just know by logic that it cannot be a place of eternal punishment for sin. Should the Church completely accept gays? While the Catholic Church does to an extent I believe that this is one of the points they are missing on and there should be full acceptance. I think that homosexuals are just as capable of living in true love as heterosexuals are. But your list (and I am certain there are many more) are your attempt to find a reason NOT to believe in God because none of the things you mentioned are actually about God Himself but rather side-issues confusing to man.[/color]
Readers, my points that were left unadressed for what we got above instead:
1) My point was that this is the time in a childs life when their religious parents are telling them that there is a god that loves them so much, as to send them to a heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell... or whaterver beliefs come with whatever religion is being pushed on to the children. It is happening at a point in the childs life where they will believe just about anything an authority tells them.
2) There is no mechanism to know what is truth and what is distortion. This is why we have nearly 40,000 different denomination of Christianity.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #530Could I please add two more unanswered (so far) points? I made them here.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:21 pm Readers, my points that were left unadressed for what we got above instead:
1) My point was that this is the time in a childs life when their religious parents are telling them that there is a god that loves them so much, as to send them to a heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell... or whaterver beliefs come with whatever religion is being pushed on to the children. It is happening at a point in the childs life where they will believe just about anything an authority tells them.
2) There is no mechanism to know what is truth and what is distortion. This is why we have nearly 40,000 different denomination of Christianity.
3) cherry-picking
4) proof of a loving god
I note in passing that the thread obeys Godwin’s Law.
