Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[fonso]

The point I was making was that God did not create us "imperfect". We can thank Adam and Eve for that. God has given us a way back to righteousness through our Redeemer Jesus Christ and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. So, I guess the answer is that God does not expect us to be perfect, he expects us to turn to Him for redemption and forgiveness.

EDIT:
Are you saying.... that Adam and Eve were perfect before they ate the forbidden apple? Please expound on what you mean.

[FiredUp4jesus]

The point I was making was that God did not create us "imperfect". We can thank Adam and Eve for that. God has given us a way back to righteousness through our Redeemer Jesus Christ and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. So, I guess the answer is that God does not expect us to be perfect, he expects us to turn to Him for redemption and forgiveness.

EDIT:
Are you saying.... that Adam and Eve were perfect before they ate the forbidden apple? Please expound on what you mean.

Yes, they were exactly what God created them to be until they sinned against Him.

[Metatron]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

Now we're down to picking on mere semantics to bolster your fading argument. The statement in question:

In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.

1. The statement above clearly states that God controls your decision.

2. The ability to decide above refers to your PERCEIVED ability to decide. From your subjective point of view, you appear to have free will. From the objective point of view, God controls every variable involved in the decision including even the electro-chemical state of your brain. Therefore, objectively speaking, there is no free will as long as you assume an omni-everything God.

Since we are talking about an Omni-everything God, you have to admit that it is possible for Him to create a being with free-will. And since He knows everything it is possible for Him to know the outcome of every decision that being will make without excercising any form of manipulation or control. Why is this concept so difficult to accept?

Yes he could give man free will IF he deliberately waived control of many aspects of reality, especially those dealing with the day to day lives of people. It is the control of all aspects of reality via his omnipotence that makes free will an illusion. To give man free will he has to effectively limit himself. He would be in effect restricting his own omnipotence. Which brings up the question: is omnipotence still omnipotence if it is only potential rather than reality? Can an omnipotent being limit his own omnipotence and still be omnipotent?

Now we are getting into semantics and philosophy rather than theology. I'll stick with theology and say "yes". God's word tells us that God is all powerful, but that He has given us free will. In order for both statements to be true, He would have to limit His "control" but not necessarily His power. By my understanding, omnipotence means all powerful, not all controlling. Since God is all knowing He can still optimize and overcome our bad decisions while still giving us the freedom to make them. Case in point. God brought about the redemption of all mankind by allowing us to make the really bad decision of killing Jesus Christ.

You see I believe what you said above is pretty good evidence that God is pre-ordaining results. You talk about God "allowing us to make the really bad decision of killing Jesus Christ". It wasn't a matter of allowing something to happen, it was part of the plan from the beginning. You imply that there was an option to have allowed Jesus to grow old and die of old age. How would man have been "saved" if that had been allowed to happen. Jesus' death on the cross was pre-ordained by God.

[Metatron]

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

I think what was meant was why God would create humans as imperfect, then expect them to be perfect. It's basically expecting an impossibility.

The point I was making was that God did not create us "imperfect". We can thank Adam and Eve for that. God has given us a way back to righteousness through our Redeemer Jesus Christ and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. So, I guess the answer is that God does not expect us to be perfect, he expects us to turn to Him for redemption and forgiveness.

If we were not created imperfect, Adam and Eve would not have made a flawed decision. Perfect beings do not make imperfect decisions by definition.

[FiredUp4jesus]

You see I believe what you said above is pretty good evidence that God is pre-ordaining results. You talk about God "allowing us to make the really bad decision of killing Jesus Christ". It wasn't a matter of allowing something to happen, it was part of the plan from the beginning. You imply that there was an option to have allowed Jesus to grow old and die of old age. How would man have been "saved" if that had been allowed to happen. Jesus' death on the cross was pre-ordained by God.

My view on this is that God knew what would happen, allowed it to happen, and that it was part of His plan from the begining. I don't view any of this as contradictory in nature. Your idea of God is one who is controlling everything directly, while mine is of a God who is IN control without directing or dictating our actions unless we ask. I think of Him as a Super General he Has perfect knowledge of all battlefield conditions, perfect knowledge of everything the enemy is thinking and doing and ever will do, perfect knowledge of all the enemy's weapons and capability. But, this is the important part, He does not control the enemy directly. And He doesn't control us directly either. He has given us free will and allows us to excercise it. We can choose to serve Him or we can choose to serve ourselves, we can even choose to serve the enemy. God is not going to force us to do anything until He decides to end this war once and for all. At that time every knee will bow and everyone will know that there is a God in heaven.

[Metatron]

Does the doctrine of Original Sin exist or does it not? You seem to be implying that it does not. If so, you would appear to be at odds with a number of the other Christians on this forum. They have tried to argue for the morality of original sin not claim it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that the original sin didn't happen. I'm just saying that you don't have to worry about being condemed for it. You have commited plenty of sins on your own which you do have to worry about.

What do you mean I don't have to worry about being condemned for it?
Do I have eternal life? Do I live in an earthly paradise free of want or pain? All of this was supposedly stripped from me before I was born thanks to original sin. Also assume for arguments sake that I'm some sort of moral paragon who never sins during my life. Do I get into heaven even if I haven't been "saved" or am I still condemned due to original sin?

Why does an omni-everything God need a bunch of flawed creations to "glorify" him? Is he so insecure that he requires the adoration of beings vastly inferior to himself? Would you feel better about yourself if an ant colony was worshiping you?

He doesn't need anything or anyone. He is complete. As for "why did He create us"....I stopped asking God "why" years ago. It was a waste of time.

So you don't know why God requires us to "glorify" him?

Because He is worthy and I like too are the the reasons I do it.

Yes but why does an omni-everything being need or even desire the adulation of beings that are lower than bacteria to him? What's the point?

Why did God create us such that we all fall short of the glory of God? Why did he create our minds to be at enmity with God and to be by nature sinful?

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

He created us as flawed beings so that sin became inevitable so, for all practical purposes, he did create us sinful by nature. Oh, and given that he created us for companionship, shouldn't he show up occasionally. It's hard to be companions with some one whose never around.

You're very commited to the idea that somehow God is responsible for your sin. I think if you take a good hard look in the mirror and are really honest with yourself, you'll realize that God did not "make" you sin. That you choose to lie, lust, or whatever just like the rest of us. As for companionship, He's omnipresent so He's always around. Feel free to chat with Him whenever you feel like it. Just remember to confess your sins first, because they are all that seperates you from God.

1. God made us flawed beings who are intrinsically incapable of perfect morality.

2. He defined even the most trivial of deviations of morality as sin. For the briefest of lustful thoughts to the whitest of lies we are condemned to the same fate as child molesters, rapists, and murderers.

3. Were we somehow able to get past 1. and 2. above, we would be picked off by original sin.

So yes ultimately God is responsible for our sins. The deck is so heavily stacked against us that none of us have any possibility of not sinning.

[Metatron]

You see I believe what you said above is pretty good evidence that God is pre-ordaining results. You talk about God "allowing us to make the really bad decision of killing Jesus Christ". It wasn't a matter of allowing something to happen, it was part of the plan from the beginning. You imply that there was an option to have allowed Jesus to grow old and die of old age. How would man have been "saved" if that had been allowed to happen. Jesus' death on the cross was pre-ordained by God.

My view on this is that God knew what would happen, allowed it to happen, and that it was part of His plan from the beginning. I don't view any of this as contradictory in nature. Your idea of God is one who is controlling everything directly, while mine is of a God who is IN control without directing or dictating our actions unless we ask. I think of Him as a Super General he Has perfect knowledge of all battlefield conditions, perfect knowledge of everything the enemy is thinking and doing and ever will do, perfect knowledge of all the enemy's weapons and capability. But, this is the important part, He does not control the enemy directly. And He doesn't control us directly either. He has given us free will and allows us to excercise it. We can choose to serve Him or we can choose to serve ourselves, we can even choose to serve the enemy. God is not going to force us to do anything until He decides to end this war once and for all. At that time every knee will bow and everyone will know that there is a God in heaven.

If God is setting up circumstances such that there is only one possible outcome, how is he not interfering with free will. There was no possibility that Jesus was not going to be crucified.

As for your last statement, why can't we all know that there is a God in heaven NOW when it would do us some good?

[FiredUp4jesus]

What do you mean I don't have to worry about being condemned for it?
Do I have eternal life? Do I live in an earthly paradise free of want or pain? All of this was supposedly stripped from me before I was born thanks to original sin. Also assume for arguments sake that I'm some sort of moral paragon who never sins during my life. Do I get into heaven even if I haven't been "saved" or am I still condemned due to original sin?[\quote]
If you don't ever sin I'd say you go to heaven.

Why does an omni-everything God need a bunch of flawed creations to "glorify" him? Is he so insecure that he requires the adoration of beings vastly inferior to himself? Would you feel better about yourself if an ant colony was worshiping you?

Yes but why does an omni-everything being need or even desire the adulation of beings that are lower than bacteria to him? What's the point?

No an ant colony's worship wouldn't mean much to me , but I sure hope that my son looks up to me, and will want to spend time with me. Have you ever thought to concider that God has feelings?

[bernee51]

Have you ever thought to concider that God has feelings?

On what basis would you assume god to have feelings? Can these feelings be hurt? How can a 'perfect' being have the potential to be hurt?

Are you sure you are not anthropomorphizing again?

More evidence that man invented god as he would imagine himself to be.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Have you ever thought to concider that God has feelings?

On what basis would you assume god to have feelings? Can these feelings be hurt? How can a 'perfect' being have the potential to be hurt?

Are you sure you are not anthropomorphizing again?

More evidence that man invented god as he would imagine himself to be.

Based on the numerous occations were God said in the Bible I am angry, I am a jelous God, I love my children etc... What basis do you have for assuming that God has no feelings?