Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[Manu]

I don't know if someone had mentioned this because there is just too much to read.

But if it is unfair that we are counted guilty on the basis of Adam, then it is also unfair that we are counted justified on the Basis of Jesus.

Another point to consider is that God's ultimate purpose is to bring Glory to himself. If there be no sin/sinners how would God show his Justice through wrath and his grace through mercy? Obviously everything that happens is within God's will otherwise it would not happen, and he allows what happens not just to "see" what will happen but he allows it with intentions. Hcontrols everything that happens for a purpose and that purpose is just what I said. To bring glory to himself.

Proverbs 16:4 "God has made all things for himself [for his own ends/glroy] even the wicked for the day of destruction."

Nevertheless we must remember that we all deserve punishment because we have all rebelled against God. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" So it is not up to us [the clay] to tell God [the potter] how and what he should do with his clay (especially when we are sinners)
Of course this would be a hard teaching to understand since our human mind is at enmity with God and it is in its nature sinful.

We must trust in the Lord Jesus Christ (to have peace with God) and Jesus our Shepheard will defend us from the wolves (John 10).

[Metatron]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

Now we're down to picking on mere semantics to bolster your fading argument. The statement in question:

In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.

1. The statement above clearly states that God controls your decision.

2. The ability to decide above refers to your PERCEIVED ability to decide. From your subjective point of view, you appear to have free will. From the objective point of view, God controls every variable involved in the decision including even the electro-chemical state of your brain. Therefore, objectively speaking, there is no free will as long as you assume an omni-everything God.

Since we are talking about an Omni-everything God, you have to admit that it is possible for Him to create a being with free-will. And since He knows everything it is possible for Him to know the outcome of every decision that being will make without excercising any form of manipulation or control. Why is this concept so difficult to accept?

Yes he could give man free will IF he deliberately waived control of many aspects of reality, especially those dealing with the day to day lives of people. It is the control of all aspects of reality via his omnipotence that makes free will an illusion. To give man free will he has to effectively limit himself. He would be in effect restricting his own omnipotence. Which brings up the question: is omnipotence still omnipotence if it is only potential rather than reality? Can an omnipotent being limit his own omnipotence and still be omnipotent?

[Metatron]

But if it is unfair that we are counted guilty on the basis of Adam, then it is also unfair that we are counted justified on the Basis of Jesus.

Truth be known, the idea of all of mankind's sins, no matter how heinous, being magically washed away by a human sacrifice doesn't make any more sense to me than the idea that God would condemn all of mankind for the alleged sin of two people. A just God would judge men on the sins they commit themselves and punish (or preferably rehabilitate) people in proportion to the severity of the offences.

Another point to consider is that God's ultimate purpose is to bring Glory to himself. If there be no sin/sinners how would God show his Justice through wrath and his grace through mercy? Obviously everything that happens is within God's will otherwise it would not happen, and he allows what happens not just to "see" what will happen but he allows it with intentions. Hcontrols everything that happens for a purpose and that purpose is just what I said. To bring glory to himself.

Proverbs 16:4 "God has made all things for himself [for his own ends/glroy] even the wicked for the day of destruction."

Why does an omni-everything God need a bunch of flawed creations to "glorify" him? Is he so insecure that he requires the adoration of beings vastly inferior to himself? Would you feel better about yourself if an ant colony was worshiping you?

Nevertheless we must remember that we all deserve punishment because we have all rebelled against God. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" So it is not up to us [the clay] to tell God [the potter] how and what he should do with his clay (especially when we are sinners)
Of course this would be a hard teaching to understand since our human mind is at enmity with God and it is in its nature sinful.

Why did God create us such that we all fall short of the glory of God? Why did he create our minds to be at enmity with God and to be by nature sinful?

[FiredUp4jesus]

Truth be known, the idea of all of mankind's sins, no matter how heinous, being magically washed away by a human sacrifice doesn't make any more sense to me than the idea that God would condemn all of mankind for the alleged sin of two people. A just God would judge men on the sins they commit themselves and punish (or preferably rehabilitate) people in proportion to the severity of the offences.

You aren't condemned. You are forgiven. Your concept of original sin is a big stumbling block for you. Why is it so hard for you to understand that your sins are all you are going to be punished for, if you don't accept the gift of forgiveness waiting for you?

Why does an omni-everything God need a bunch of flawed creations to "glorify" him? Is he so insecure that he requires the adoration of beings vastly inferior to himself? Would you feel better about yourself if an ant colony was worshiping you?

He doesn't need anything or anyone. He is complete. As for "why did He create us"....I stopped asking God "why" years ago. It was a waste of time.

Why did God create us such that we all fall short of the glory of God? Why did he create our minds to be at enmity with God and to be by nature sinful?

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

[fonso]

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

I think what was meant was why God would create humans as imperfect, then expect them to be perfect. It's basically expecting an impossibility.

[FiredUp4jesus]

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

I think what was meant was why God would create humans as imperfect, then expect them to be perfect. It's basically expecting an impossibility.

The point I was making was that God did not create us "imperfect". We can thank Adam and Eve for that. God has given us a way back to righteousness through our Redeemer Jesus Christ and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. So, I guess the answer is that God does not expect us to be perfect, he expects us to turn to Him for redemption and forgiveness.

[Metatron]

Truth be known, the idea of all of mankind's sins, no matter how heinous, being magically washed away by a human sacrifice doesn't make any more sense to me than the idea that God would condemn all of mankind for the alleged sin of two people. A just God would judge men on the sins they commit themselves and punish (or preferably rehabilitate) people in proportion to the severity of the offences.

You aren't condemned. You are forgiven. Your concept of original sin is a big stumbling block for you. Why is it so hard for you to understand that your sins are all you are going to be punished for, if you don't accept the gift of forgiveness waiting for you?

Does the doctrine of Original Sin exist or does it not? You seem to be implying that it does not. If so, you would appear to be at odds with a number of the other Christians on this forum. They have tried to argue for the morality of original sin not claim it doesn't exist.

Why does an omni-everything God need a bunch of flawed creations to "glorify" him? Is he so insecure that he requires the adoration of beings vastly inferior to himself? Would you feel better about yourself if an ant colony was worshiping you?

He doesn't need anything or anyone. He is complete. As for "why did He create us"....I stopped asking God "why" years ago. It was a waste of time.

So you don't know why God requires us to "glorify" him?

Why did God create us such that we all fall short of the glory of God? Why did he create our minds to be at enmity with God and to be by nature sinful?

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

He created us as flawed beings so that sin became inevitable so, for all practical purposes, he did create us sinful by nature. Oh, and given that he created us for companionship, shouldn't he show up occasionally. It's hard to be companions with some one whose never around.

[fonso]

The point I was making was that God did not create us "imperfect". We can thank Adam and Eve for that. God has given us a way back to righteousness through our Redeemer Jesus Christ and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. So, I guess the answer is that God does not expect us to be perfect, he expects us to turn to Him for redemption and forgiveness.

Are you saying.... that Adam and Eve were perfect? Please expound on what you mean.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

Now we're down to picking on mere semantics to bolster your fading argument. The statement in question:

In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.

1. The statement above clearly states that God controls your decision.

2. The ability to decide above refers to your PERCEIVED ability to decide. From your subjective point of view, you appear to have free will. From the objective point of view, God controls every variable involved in the decision including even the electro-chemical state of your brain. Therefore, objectively speaking, there is no free will as long as you assume an omni-everything God.

Since we are talking about an Omni-everything God, you have to admit that it is possible for Him to create a being with free-will. And since He knows everything it is possible for Him to know the outcome of every decision that being will make without excercising any form of manipulation or control. Why is this concept so difficult to accept?

Yes he could give man free will IF he deliberately waived control of many aspects of reality, especially those dealing with the day to day lives of people. It is the control of all aspects of reality via his omnipotence that makes free will an illusion. To give man free will he has to effectively limit himself. He would be in effect restricting his own omnipotence. Which brings up the question: is omnipotence still omnipotence if it is only potential rather than reality? Can an omnipotent being limit his own omnipotence and still be omnipotent?

Now we are getting into semantics and philosophy rather than theology. I'll stick with theology and say "yes". God's word tells us that God is all powerful, but that He has given us free will. In order for both statements to be true, He would have to limit His "control" but not nessessarily His power. By my understanding, omnipotence means all powerful, not all controlling. Since God is all knowing He can still optimize and overcome our bad decisions while still giving us the freedom to make them. Case in point. God brought about the redemption of all mankind by allowing us to make the really bad decision of killing Jesus Christ.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Does the doctrine of Original Sin exist or does it not? You seem to be implying that it does not. If so, you would appear to be at odds with a number of the other Christians on this forum. They have tried to argue for the morality of original sin not claim it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that the original sin didn't happen. I'm just saying that you don't have to worry about being condemed for it. You have commited plenty of sins on your own which you do have to worry about.

Why does an omni-everything God need a bunch of flawed creations to "glorify" him? Is he so insecure that he requires the adoration of beings vastly inferior to himself? Would you feel better about yourself if an ant colony was worshiping you?

He doesn't need anything or anyone. He is complete. As for "why did He create us"....I stopped asking God "why" years ago. It was a waste of time.

So you don't know why God requires us to "glorify" him?[/quot]

Because He is worthy and I like too are the the reasons I do it.

Why did God create us such that we all fall short of the glory of God? Why did he create our minds to be at enmity with God and to be by nature sinful?

You seem to be implying that God created us sinful by nature which is not true. He created us for companionship with Him. When we choose to ignore Him, we are serving our own interests not God's design.

He created us as flawed beings so that sin became inevitable so, for all practical purposes, he did create us sinful by nature. Oh, and given that he created us for companionship, shouldn't he show up occasionally. It's hard to be companions with some one whose never around.

You're very commited to the idea that somehow God is responsible for your sin. I think if you take a good hard look in the mirror and are really honest with yourself, you'll realize that God did not "make" you sin. That you choose to lie, lust, or whatever just like the rest of us. As for companionship, He's omnipresent so He's always around. Feel free to chat with Him whenever you feel like it. Just remember to confess your sins first, because they are all that seperates you from God.