Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Yes, to person A, he has all the "evidence" he needs to stick to his claim. But how can this be proof to person B or to any outsider who chooses to believe otherwise?

If person B is willing to believe that God has predetermined all his actions, he's more than willing to believe that the case is true for all of person A's actions.

Likewise, if person A is so sure that it was of his own free will that he picked the stick up, he will be 100% positive that person B is accountable for his own actions.

By what standard do we judge what constitutes "visible evidence"? If it is by visually seeing someone perform an act, this doesn't really cut it.

It is always subjective, which is why I say the point is moot.

Well, since we are speaking english, "visible evidence" would be:

Something that makes plain or clear, that can be seen.

Now according to this definition only one of the people in this stiuation has met those requirements to support their position. Now people can choose to believe whatever they want to be sure. But the point of this discussion is to determine what is reasonable or logical based on the evidence provided. If someone wants to claim that God made them do it, let them provide the evidence that supports that claim. Is that really to much to ask?

[fonso]

To answer your question, yes, it really is too much to ask, short of asking someone to show you the face of God

If you must pose the argument under circumstances that remove metaphysical considerations, you effectively de-claw the other side of the argument, as providing evidence for something intangible is an improbability.

Under these conditions, I would agree with person A. Sadly, this idealized exercise doesn't necessarily make the argument true. In the end, no questions have been answered.

[antichrist]

Angry? YES I am! I'm angry that I was brainwashed into believing all of that myself.

Someone forced you to believe something? Did they use hypnosis, chemicals, deprivation - what?

Yes, they used the tool of taking a small child and telling them what is 'correct' (christianity) and bringing them to church at an impressional age without any true alternative.

Just like any person who escapes from a cult I feel i have a right to be angry

Once again was someone forcing you to stay in a cult of some kind? If so, I feel sorry for you but it has nothing to do with Original Sin.

First, I would say that Christianity fits into one of the definitions in the dictionary for cult. Forced? Mentaly, to some degree by cultural and parental influences for a time period.

You want me to stop being angry about Christianity

I want you to be at peace. And know God's love. That is all.

I am far more at peace now than when I was in mind-grip of the hell-fire, bloody redemption, illogical salvation of christianity.

I don't believe them and I think they do the world harm and we don't need them to be good.

Yes, it is your right to be angry but I hope you can learn to know God, read the Bible and know His wisdom and his forgiving nature. I will pray for you.

I do appreciate the gesture but please don't pray for me- its wasted on me. I will never accept jesus as my saviour even unto my dying day. It's nice to know that learning about whatever god is does not require knowing anything about jesus.

You say sin describes something- but what?

A definition of sin is doing what is wrong or not doing what is right according to God's rules (1 John 3:4). If God says "Do not lie" and you lie, then you have sinned. If God says "Do not steal" and you steal, then you have sinned. According to God, sin separates you from Him (Isaiah 59:2).

It's not according to God or his rules. This is a book written by men whom were not perfect and YOU have given authority to it.

you decides what is a sin and what isn't? you?

No, not me, God decides. Sin is the disobedience to the LORD GOD's Laws and is unrighteous, unjust, immoral and wrong. The five types of sin, transgression, unrighteousness, omission of known duty, faithlessness, and foolish thinking constitute a sin against the LORD GOD.

You can classify it as 5 types of sin? again, this is you giving authority to this book or preachers. the measurment of what is right or wrong that has come from whatever god is- resides in your mind and heart. you can learn from books or others but the real authority lies in you.

we all are brainwashed but to some degree

Well, OK, if this is true then what is the counter-argument? So we are ALL brainwashed...then brainwashing is a "natural" state of everyone & has no meaning.

the point is that we are all conditioned by the environment all the time. but christians make it a point to indoctrinate people, y' know "save thier souls" via missionaries, sunday school, etc.

but religions do whatever they can to spread their doctrines to people to scare them and to indoctrinate children.

Don't group all religions together - that is prejudice and inappropriate. And as far as "indoctrination of children" goes, you indoctrinate children into the the Darwinian religion every day in public school. And now, many are attempting to indoctrinate children into the gay lifestyle by telling them it is healthy and OK! So don't say we indoctrinate children.

of course you indoctrinate children. but you are right, indoctrination is everywhere. there should be different sides of the argument presented to kids at school. prejudice and innappropriate? Take a look at that link you sent me. It's saying 90% of all people are going to hell. People born to other cultures around the world, some of which will never hear of jesus, others whom dismiss it as the myth that it clearly is just as if they were hearing about zeus. even folks that live decent hard working, spiritualy loving lives would burn in hell forever? now that is prejudice and innappropriate. in fact, rereading it makes me angry. it is just this kind of non-thinking that makes it so easy to dismiss. it says that thousands of people are going to hell every hour because they deny christ. IGNORANCE. it says "You must realize that your a sinner. You must realize that you deserve to go to hell because of your sins. You must realize that Jesus died on the cross and shed His perfect blood to pay for your sins. You must realize that Jesus was buried and rose again from the dead 3 days later. Jesus did this so we could obtain heaven. " Really, MUST I? that is the biggest load of junk ever to twist its way into humanity's thinking.

We are getting way off topic but I couldn't let your comment about homosexuals go. They are not sinners. You are born with your attraction; they are born with theirs; you do not choose which sex you are born with nor what you will be attracted to; neither do they. end of issue. just because a passage in some old moldy text proclaims it a sin doesn't mean anything. one has to use common sense.

all that and my main comment I feel is still valid if you read it with a true open heart:
"babies are born all over the world.... beautiful and innocent. they are born to love and be loved- love being a concept that most people agree on universally. they are shaped by their environment, if you raise them in an attentive, loving, nurturing, healthy, human environment- they will blossom with loving attributes every time as 'nature' intended.
there is no hell waiting for them. there's folks all over the world whoom have never ever and will never hear the name of jesus and they and thier children are doing just fine- perhaps better because of it."
same have made a case that we have no free will because, as i wrote in another post, we come into this world free of choice (as far as we know although this might not be true in a even larger picture) with environment, mental capacity, physical limitations, parental, cultural,political, relligious environments.

thanks for the conversation

[Metatron]

That is 1) assuming god has perfect knowledge, 2) god is all powerful, 3) god created the universe and 4) 'perfect knowledge'include knowledge of the future.

You are simply dodging the point. You apparently have no actual argument and just keep saying the same thing over and over again. You can't show how God's knowledge of what you would do actually caused you to do anything. You had free will even if the outcome was known before hand. In order to win this argument you must prove that God caused you to sin. Did God move your lips and cause you to lie? No, he did make you do anything. You did it all on your own, and you know it! Just because God knew what you (and everyone else) would do doesn't mean that the choice wasn't real. Saying otherwise is just a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility.

I guess you just are unwilling to understand. To acknowledge the point I am making is hitting your very basic assumptions.

I keep on repeating that because of an unwillingness on yoru part to understand. I guess I will not discuss this with you, because you do not wish to hear.

You haven't made a point. You just keep repeating the same logical fallacy over and over again no matter how many times or how many ways I explain it. You need to re-examine the laws of cause and effect, and demonstrate how foreknowledge can have any effect whatsoever.

Well how about this? Quoting from myself earlier in this thread:

Except that God does not merely know what you will do the second you decide, he has ALWAYS known what you will do since before the universe was created. He has also always known about the exact circumstances that you are in at the time as well as before and after. He already knows about any deep seated psychosis you will have at the time you make the decision and about any environmental or societal factors that might have influence your decision.

This is why deist during the Enlightenment developed the concept of a clockwork universe. In a universe set in motion by an omni-everything deity, God not only knows where every atom in the universe is and what it is interacting with, he knows where every atom in the universe WILL be in the future. He knows every chemical interaction of your body and exactly when every neuron in your brain will fire. Since God knew all of these interactions even before creation and set the universe in motion with full knowledge of how these interactions would play out, effectively everything in the universe by definition happens by his will. He knew through the confluence of events that he set in motion, the interactions of your body chemistry, the psychosis that were created by the environment and heredity that he willed into being that you either would or would not kill. You, as a finite being, are the sum of the forces God placed in motion at the creation of the universe. By definition, everything happens by his will, therefore free will is an illusion.

Thanks for saying the exact same thing without adding a shred of proof to your argument. I agree with most of your comments. Yes God knows everything. But you have never demonstrated that God caused any of our actions. You have shown that He influences our circumstances, but have not provided anything in the nature of causation. In other words, you have made a good argument that everything that happens is God’s will, but you have failed to demonstrate how that truth eliminates my free will. All you have shown is that whatever choice I do make, is in known beforehand and incorporated into God’s perfect plan. So, please show me how God's knowledge of my decision to sin in the future removes the decision making process from my brain. Do I blackout and simply act without thinking? Does God take over my body and make me steal against my will? How does God MAKE ME DO IT? This is the central question which you have refused to answer.

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

[Goat]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

Only, if God purposely forgo's perfect knowledge of the future.

[Metatron]

Yes, to person A, he has all the "evidence" he needs to stick to his claim. But how can this be proof to person B or to any outsider who chooses to believe otherwise?

If person B is willing to believe that God has predetermined all his actions, he's more than willing to believe that the case is true for all of person A's actions.

Likewise, if person A is so sure that it was of his own free will that he picked the stick up, he will be 100% positive that person B is accountable for his own actions.

By what standard do we judge what constitutes "visible evidence"? If it is by visually seeing someone perform an act, this doesn't really cut it.

It is always subjective, which is why I say the point is moot.

Well, since we are speaking english, "visible evidence" would be:

Something that makes plain or clear, that can be seen.

Now according to this definition only one of the people in this situation has met those requirements to support their position. Now people can choose to believe whatever they want to be sure. But the point of this discussion is to determine what is reasonable or logical based on the evidence provided. If someone wants to claim that God made them do it, let them provide the evidence that supports that claim. Is that really to much to ask?

I find this argument based on "visible evidence" somewhat ironic coming from an apologist given that there is usually an attempt to downplay the significance of the lack of visible evidence for the existence of God.
Have you suddenly transformed into a pragmatist who insists on evidence rather than faith or conjecture?

[Metatron]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

Now we're down to picking on mere semantics to bolster your fading argument. The statement in question:

In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.

1. The statement above clearly states that God controls your decision.

2. The ability to decide above refers to your PERCEIVED ability to decide. From your subjective point of view, you appear to have free will. From the objective point of view, God controls every variable involved in the decision including even the electro-chemical state of your brain. Therefore, objectively speaking, there is no free will as long as you assume an omni-everything God.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Yes, to person A, he has all the "evidence" he needs to stick to his claim. But how can this be proof to person B or to any outsider who chooses to believe otherwise?

If person B is willing to believe that God has predetermined all his actions, he's more than willing to believe that the case is true for all of person A's actions.

Likewise, if person A is so sure that it was of his own free will that he picked the stick up, he will be 100% positive that person B is accountable for his own actions.

By what standard do we judge what constitutes "visible evidence"? If it is by visually seeing someone perform an act, this doesn't really cut it.

It is always subjective, which is why I say the point is moot.

Well, since we are speaking english, "visible evidence" would be:

Something that makes plain or clear, that can be seen.

Now according to this definition only one of the people in this situation has met those requirements to support their position. Now people can choose to believe whatever they want to be sure. But the point of this discussion is to determine what is reasonable or logical based on the evidence provided. If someone wants to claim that God made them do it, let them provide the evidence that supports that claim. Is that really to much to ask?

I find this argument based on "visible evidence" somewhat ironic coming from an apologist given that there is usually an attempt to downplay the significance of the lack of visible evidence for the existence of God.
Have you suddenly transformed into a pragmatist who insists on evidence rather than faith or conjecture?

No, I've always been the skeptical type. The reason that you find it ironic is that you discount the entire written history of God's interaction with man. I don't. I find that the Bible is very compelling evidence for the existence of God.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I have answered, you apparently just don't see it.

If God were simply an omniscient oracle of some sort then you would be correct. Simply knowing the future does not mean that you control it. However, this is not the case with God. God is defined as the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe. As such when God created this universe he created it through out all space and time. Every conceivable variable and their interactions with each other down to the atomic and sub-atomic particle level exists by God's will.

When someone makes a decision every conceivable variable that has any bearing on your ability to choose has been set in place by God's will. Every interaction in your body even to the atomic level has been planned by God. Your mental and physical condition exist as part of God's plan. Do you have mental issues like psychosis and depression? There part of God's plan. Hormonal imbalances? Ditto. Other hereditary factors? yep.
How about all of the external environmental factors that might influence decisions? Yes, part of the plan. You can even make the argument that the order and nature of how the synapses in your brain fire was all part of God's plan which, because he is omniscient, was fully encompassed in his mind before the actual creation itself. In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.
Therefore if you postulate the existence of an omni-everything creator, free will is an illusion.

I do see the facts you have presented. I took the liberty of highligting a portion of your conclusion that is at odds with the rest of your statement. If God has given us an ability to decide then you acknowledge the existence of free will. If that ability does not exist, neither does free will. You see, just because God controls everything does not mean that you are not responsible for your decisions. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God created us "in his image." Free will is one of the ways that we are like God. If God is truly Onipotent, than he can create a being with Free Will.

Now we're down to picking on mere semantics to bolster your fading argument. The statement in question:

In short, if God controls every variable, he controls literally everything including your ability to decide.

1. The statement above clearly states that God controls your decision.

2. The ability to decide above refers to your PERCEIVED ability to decide. From your subjective point of view, you appear to have free will. From the objective point of view, God controls every variable involved in the decision including even the electro-chemical state of your brain. Therefore, objectively speaking, there is no free will as long as you assume an omni-everything God.

Since we are talking about an Omni-everything God, you have to admit that it is possible for Him to create a being with free-will. And since He knows everything it is possible for Him to know the outcome of every decision that being will make without excercising any form of manipulation or control. Why is this concept so difficult to accept?