Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #47]

1Sa 13:11
Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

And so, we already see that Saul was certainly not patient for the LORD's prophet, much less the LORD Himself.

Asking for dreams, seeking by urim, asking for prophets.....and making a burnt offering, and Saul still gets no answer.

[RBD]

How could it be Samuel’s ghost when the woman with a familiar spirit was the one who called the ghost?

This is a good point, but we've seen how God uses the wicked devices of others, in order to perform His own will.

The first Bible question is, can someone's 'ghost' be brought up to speak with man. Is anything to hard for the LORD? The law was only against men seeking to do so, such as witches. Not that it was unlawful to do so.

Therefore, if anyone did bring up Samuel's ghost, then it would have been the LORD. And the message was for Saul, and false mediums are in the habit of telling people what they want to hear, not the only thing they don't want to here. And the message proves is must have been from the LORD:

1Sa 28:16
Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

How could anyone but Samuel and Saul know this for sure? Saul certainly never admitted it to anyone in Scripture.

1Sa 15:26
And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

This is the LORD's bona fides with Saul, that it is indeed Samuel.

1Sa 28:19
Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

And this is a prophecy, that no false prophet would ever make to the king. It's risking their own lives. If the king lives, then that false prophet will surely be put to death, for telling him he would be slain in battle. Which once again, is not what the king wanted to hear.

And Saul's acquiescence to the prophecy, rather than rage and accusations of lies, only confirms that he knew the Samuel of old that he was talking to.

Deu 18:21
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

But of course, the prophecy is true, and therefore made by the LORD's prophet come up from Abraham's bosom.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #47]

1Sa 13:11
Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

And so, we already see that Saul was certainly not patient for the LORD's prophet, much less the LORD Himself.

Asking for dreams, seeking by urim, asking for prophets.....and making a burnt offering, and Saul still gets no answer.

Now you got it. The price to pay for rebellion beyond repentance.

Pro 1:24
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

I guess your metaphysical infinity has no rules for speaking with cosmic voice to metaphysical ears? Or, does it at all?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #52]

Therefore, if anyone did bring up Samuel's ghost, then it would have been the LORD. And the message was for Saul, and false mediums are in the habit of telling people what they want to hear, not the only thing they don't want to here.

Then Samuel telling Saul what he doesn't want to hear suggests at least as strongly that the Wise Woman is a true medium.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #45]

In this case, the Almighty God alone can absolutely identify ghosts, no one else can. Actually, ghosts are spirit beings.

You asked how the ghost could be Samuel. I provided textual evidence that the ghost was supposed to be Samuel.

This looks to me now as if you were begging the bible to be the Almighty God, don’t you? The Almighty God alone can truly identify ghosts of any kind, not anyone and anything else.

Is that worth more than thousands of human lives?

Of course not to me, but to others like kings of the earth, I could say yes, remember Hitler?

Then how is David's killing by 100k to be envied?

A race to fame, glory, and power, and riches - the sword’s rule is the seat of power fits only to the best warrior. Saul was scared of the impending catastrophe that would fall on his life due to his departure from God.

What makes it a double standard is unequal treatment of the same behavior.

For as long that I am not sinning against God by such act, I’m at peace with everything.

There's such a thing as righteous hypocrisy?

As I’ve told you, what we’ve heard and learned from the Almighty God matters only in our lives. Since ‘other deity’ is non-existent, a disbelief in the same incurs nothing in our souls.

Are you arguing that people get a false picture of Jesus from the Christian Bible?

Bibliolaters, not Christians, divide Jesus by formulating/inventing different notions about Him (Jesus) through the use of biblical verses, hence, the various denominations today, around the globe. The ‘Bible of Christians’ is not the literal bible today, but Jesus Christ Himself.

If you don't take the Bible's word for what Jesus was, then what valid argument do you have against the Quran's presentation of Jesus as a Muslim prophet or the Hindu concept of Jesus as an avatar of Vishnu?

The best way to evade argumentation with them is not to enter a debate. I’m well off with my faith without them.

If you have no problem with all the Bible writers being wrong, how can you----with certainty----reject any extra-biblical concept of Jesus as wrong?

The Lord Jesus gave us parameters to distinguish them vis-á-vis His utterances.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #53]

Asking for dreams, seeking by urim, asking for prophets.....and making a burnt offering, and Saul still gets no answer.

Now you got it. The price to pay for rebellion beyond repentance.

Pro 1:24
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer;.....

I guess your metaphysical infinity has no rules for speaking with cosmic voice to metaphysical ears? Or, does it at all?

Does biblical text have no rules against accusing someone of not inquiring [Chronicles] after establishing that he did inquire [1 Samuel]?

[OneJack]

[Replying to RBD in post #53]

Asking for dreams, seeking by urim, asking for prophets.....and making a burnt offering, and Saul still gets no answer.

Now you got it. The price to pay for rebellion beyond repentance.

Pro 1:24
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer;.....

I guess your metaphysical infinity has no rules for speaking with cosmic voice to metaphysical ears? Or, does it at all?

Does biblical text have no rules against accusing someone of not inquiring [Chronicles] after establishing that he did inquire [1 Samuel]?

The rule comes only from God if we want the truth, and that’s ALWAYS!

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to OneJack in post #55]

You asked how the ghost could be Samuel. I provided textual evidence that the ghost was supposed to be Samuel.

This looks to me now as if you were begging the bible to be the Almighty God, don’t you? The Almighty God alone can truly identify ghosts of any kind, not anyone and anything else.

You seem oddly dismissive of the Bible----

"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and for Thy truth, for Thou hast magnified Thy word above all Thy name.
(Psalms 138:2)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
(2 Timothy 316)

Are those just texts you dismiss?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to OneJack in post #57]

Does biblical text have no rules against accusing someone of not inquiring [Chronicles] after establishing that he did inquire [1 Samuel]?

The rule comes only from God if we want the truth, and that’s ALWAYS!

If nothing comes from the Bible, what's the point of having it?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #55]

You asked how the ghost could be Samuel. I provided textual evidence that the ghost was supposed to be Samuel.

This looks to me now as if you were begging the bible to be the Almighty God, don’t you? The Almighty God alone can truly identify ghosts of any kind, not anyone and anything else.

You seem oddly dismissive of the Bible----

Except for the direct utterances of God and Jesus.

"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and for Thy truth, for Thou hast magnified Thy word above all Thy name.
(Psalms 138:2)

What does KD tells Athotetheist in this verse, btw?????

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
(2 Timothy 316)[

Jesus says otherwise, to wit:

You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Are those just texts you dismiss?

I can replace them with these texts from Jesus, and He said:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 2Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”