Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?

[Justin108]

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

[Justin108]

I cannot accept that someone can view the Universe and think “No intelligent entity is involved.� I think that denial is mere self-deception par excellence.

Your accusation of denial aside... suppose there is an intelligent entity behind the creation of the universe. Why assume it's the God of the Bible?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 46 by Yahu]

Person a) is a murderer and a rapist. He finds Christianity and repents. He is saved

Person b) is an atheist. His greatest sin was telling a lie. He dies without ever repenting. He is not saved.


Does the above two scenarios describe justice to you?

[JLB32168]

Your reason for belief seems to be that you look around, see design and deduce a designer. That simplistic way of seeing things is fine.

If it were simplistic then I wouldn’t accept that it had a designer. The fact that it isn’t simplistic is the reason I conclude there’s a designer.

And I find it hard to believe that people accept the nomadic creation in the Bible was responsible, singled-handedly, for transporting billions of tons of matter to construct our universe.

I can see how one could say, “It’s hard to understand how someone could infer that the Christianity deity is the one that did anything. Why not another deity?�

Of course, one reason I accept the Christian deity is the ire reserved for Him, which St. Paul addresses saying that it is evidence of man's knowledge and rejection of Him. From the atheist or other skeptic’s view, YHWH doesn’t exist; therefore, YHWH didn’t order the exterminations of the indigenous peoples of Canaan; however, let’s hate this non-existent entity anyway. The weirdness of that is only exacerbated by a second atheist and other skeptic view that archaeology says that the Hebrews never resided in Egypt. That means that they weren’t ever delivered from Egypt. That means that Canaan is their native land. That means that they didn’t even destroy the indigenous peoples of Canaan since they were indeed one of the indigenous peoples of Canaan.

There’s just so much disdain for a deity that doesn’t exist based upon His commands to commit atrocities that never happened.

Such foaming over nonexistent entities and events (I don’t get in a lather of the Pagan who claims great things about Thor and the Valkyries) only confirms in my mind that people have knowledge of God – even when they say otherwise.

Sue me.

The billions who worship Allah say that he revealed himself to them. This is fanciful.

Except that Allah and God are the same people and I don't think that Muslims will necessarily go to Hell - however one chooses to define it.

[JLB32168]

You're asking me? I'm not God. God can do anything right?

Nope – God cannot do that which is less perfect. Of course, you’re free to told the opinion that the inability to do the inferior and how this means one isn’t “much of a god.� I disagree since making all matter/energy from a vacuum seems pretty impressive.

Like actually appearing there with the line would be a good thing. The situation you describe is an invisible undetectable being throwing out an invisible line that is intangible.

OMG! It’s an analogy! It’s not meant to be a perfect comparison or it wouldn’t be called an analogy.

Wouldn't you do that for your own child if they were in that situation?

Adults aren’t children. Actual human children aren’t held to the same standard of knowledge as adults. An adult that rejects all help from God simply has no excuse. To absolve oneself of all responsibility for his/her failure is . . . well . . . stupid.

What was done would be done for my own good and hopefully I would see that down the track just as I did when my parents forced me to do things I didn't want to do.

And it might be done of the good of others. God will help if you ask and if you don’t He won’t force you. It behooves you to not follow Dives’ example. God with Lazarus’ instead.

I hope you don't have children. If you did I could imagine them, if they rebel and you simply giving up on them. I would never give up on my children.

I won’t give up on my adult children either, but neither can I move them to do accept my help. They’re small children right now. I step in more often.

You are simply making excuses for what is clearly a non-existent or unloving god.

If he’s non-existent then no harm done. If He exists then it doesn’t matter if he’s unloving – since clearly He is since He helps those who want the help. Even if he weren’t loving, which I think is an outrageously asinine idea, it is a fool who doesn’t heed the voice of an omnipotent deity.

[marco]

If it were simplistic then I wouldn’t accept that it had a designer. The fact that it isn’t simplistic is the reason I conclude there’s a designer.

Looking up, seeing the Sun and deducing a God is what primitive minds did. The difference is that you no longer identify the Sun itself as a God. But let us not claim the status of polymath because we say Yahweh is the Designer. Deducing God by eyesight, to me, is simplistic.

Of course, one reason I accept the Christian deity is the ire reserved for Him, which St. Paul addresses saying that it is evidence of man's knowledge and rejection of Him.

That's an ingenious reason for accepting Yahweh - out of sympathy. I'm sure he is duly grateful.

From the atheist or other skeptic’s view, YHWH doesn’t exist; therefore, YHWH didn’t order the exterminations of the indigenous peoples of Canaan; however, let’s hate this non-existent entity anyway. The weirdness of that is only exacerbated by a second atheist and other skeptic view that archaeology says that the Hebrews never resided in Egypt. That means that they weren’t ever delivered from Egypt. That means that Canaan is their native land. That means that they didn’t even destroy the indigenous peoples of Canaan since they were indeed one of the indigenous peoples of Canaan.

Though you are addressing this to me you are not debating any viewpoint I hold other than that I accept Yahweh is an invention.

It is then appropriate to comment on his character, based on the play. Hatred doesn't come into it, for, as you say, this would be silly. All the same we can disapprove of bad characters in literature or like good ones.

Except that Allah and God are the same people and I don't think that Muslims will necessarily go to Hell - however one chooses to define it.

This is tantamount to saying that upholders of ANY Abrahamic religion are on the right path. Their mutual hatred is irrelevant and the differences in their beliefs of no consequence. That is a generous view, which I share, of course.

As to Yahweh's imperfections - they are there for all to see. And we would expect a being created by Arab wanderers to be imperfect. Allah serves fresh water and tropical fruit to the believers as well as hazel-eyed demure virgins. Would we expect anything else?

[JLB32168]

Looking up, seeing the Sun and deducing a God is what primitive minds did.

Let’s take the pagan Greeks in Christ’s time. They had long abandoned the belief that the sun was Apollo or was drawn across the sky in his chariot. Certainly the nascent Christian church didn’t believe it.

Though you are addressing this to me you are not debating any viewpoint I hold other than that I accept Yahweh is an invention.

My comment was directed at the statement that atheist have not received any sort of revelation of God and that this is why they have rejected belief in Him. For someone who rejects God out of lack of evidence, they sure seem awfully irate with A) an entity they don’t believe exists, who B) ordered genocides that they don’t even think occurred.
That strikes me as a conscience that is highly conflicted. As I said earlier, I don’t set up boards and start multitudinous threads that rail on the ridiculousness of belief in Thor. I just simply disbelieve he’s a god.

Hatred doesn't come into it, for, as you say, this would be silly.

So you say, but once again, Queen Gertrude’s “The lady doth protest too much, methinks� comes to mind.

This is tantamount to saying that upholders of ANY Abrahamic religion are on the right path.

No – it just means that the other two Abrahamic faiths aren’t bereft of truth; although, Christians don’t think they possess the fullness of truth.

[marco]

My comment was directed at the statement that atheists have not received any sort of revelation of God and that this is why they have rejected belief in Him.

I don't maintain there is no possibility of some higher being or beings. I do maintain that the Abrahamic God is nonsensical. My rejection of him is not because he has sent me no emails but because, having read what is written about him, I see perfectly he is an invention, with the inventive stitches clearly showing. At times his absurdity is so patent that I am astonished that people can place faith in him just as you get astonished that atheists who look out of their bedroom window at the stars cannot conclude Yahweh made them and all the other space debris.

[JLB32168]

Person a) is a murderer and a rapist. He finds Christianity and repents. He is saved.

Yes, one can repent and be saved. I know. You’re shocked.

Person b) is an atheist. His greatest sin was telling a lie. He dies without ever repenting. He is not saved.

Lots of people lied about hiding Jews in their basements in WWII. I know of one bishop who forged baptismal certificates for Jews to spirit them out of occupied Bulgaria.

Lying is not categorically evil. Telling the truth isn’t categorically good. Sometimes either can be the other.

[OnceConvinced]

Like actually appearing there with the line would be a good thing. The situation you describe is an invisible undetectable being throwing out an invisible line that is intangible.

OMG! It’s an analogy! It’s not meant to be a perfect comparison or it wouldn’t be called an analogy.

I'm pointing out how the analogy is a false one. Perhaps you'd be better off using a different one?

Wouldn't you do that for your own child if they were in that situation?

Adults aren’t children. Actual human children aren’t held to the same standard of knowledge as adults. An adult that rejects all help from God simply has no excuse. To absolve oneself of all responsibility for his/her failure is . . . well . . . stupid.

When I say "your own child" they could either be adult or children. My children are adults now but I still call them my children.

I love my children the same as I always did even though they are both now adults. It would make no difference to me if they were 5, 25, 50 or 60 or whatever. How about you?

What was done would be done for my own good and hopefully I would see that down the track just as I did when my parents forced me to do things I didn't want to do.

And it might be done of the good of others. God will help if you ask

That's clearly not true. I begged and begged God to help me when I started losing my faith. Didn't do an ounce of good. I cried out for that line to be thrown to me. It never was.

If He exists then it doesn’t matter if he’s unloving – since clearly He is since He helps those who want the help.

Why do you insist that? I stand here as some one who cried out to him regularly over a period of 5 years for help. It never came. Clearly what you are claiming is not true. I know that for a fact. I really wanted and needed his help. Never got it.

Even if he weren’t loving, which I think is an outrageously asinine idea, it is a fool who doesn’t heed the voice of an omnipotent deity.

Remember your analogy? In your analogy this god of yours is a TANGIBLE being who throws a TANGIBLE line into the water to save save you. That is where your analogy is just so completely wrong. It isn't a tangible being. It isn't a tangible line. It's an invisible undetectable one.

You are right, it IS a fool who doesn't heed the voice of an omnipotent deity...IF and I say IF it were obvious this deity was real and speaking. However that is not the case.

All we have are claims... by people like yourself that there is an omnipotent deity speaking. Those of us who have or are drowning are not hearing any voice calling to us. We are not seeing any line thrown out to us. All this is clearly wishful thinking and I know that for a fact having been in that water drowning and crying out for God's help.

He didn't throw me that line JLB. So he either didn't love me enough, or is non-existent. Which one is it? It can only be one or the other.

I was not someone refusing to grab a hold of his line. I was one who desperately needed the line and cried out to him. Either he wasn't there to hear me or he just stood there and watched as I drowned.

[marco]

Why do you insist that? I stand here as some one who cried out to him regularly over a period of 5 years for help. It never came. Clearly what you are claiming is not true. I know that for a fact. I really wanted and needed his help. Never got it.

The usual reply to this perfectly valid observation is "We'll, I'm all right."

Some people huddle together in self-serving groups, convincing themselves of God's favour and revelation. People not so lucky must therefore be sinners or deliberately avoiding the truth that is so obvious to them. Otherwise there is no satisfactory answer to what you say unless it is an indifferent or even uncaring God.

Or perhaps a God made to suit some and not others.