Hell

[Grayson]

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

[Easyrider]

The only route to Universal Love is by taking down the barriers and the biggest of all are the "set paths".

These set paths are wrong. A sensible individual should not be manipulated by the bible or the qu'ran – that is not the path to Universal Love, far to many people have died....

Shall we include pedophilia in your "universal love" concept? Or a dozen other depraved forms of "love"? How many gays and fornicators have died of AIDS in the name of "love"? How about adultery, where two adulterers "love" one another, while their families are being decimated?

If one thing has become clear to me, the secular humanist concept of "love" is every bit as nonsensical and dangerous to me as the Biblical idea of love is to you.

[Aristarkos]

If one thing has become clear to me, the secular humanist concept of "love" is every bit as nonsensical and dangerous to me as the Biblical idea of love is to you.

Easyrider, didn't we already cover this in another topic? When a Baptist pastor uses the phase "The Way of Universal Love", there's probably no need to panic. Universal Love = what would bring the most long-term benefit for all. You know: loving-kindness, 1 Cor. 13, Gal. 5:22, God is Love.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. referred to this when he talked about a method of nonviolence in the world, saying that “the foundation of such a method is love.”

Christians should be extremely interested in what love is because of the Golden Rule. 1 Cor. 13 is the best place for Christians to start to understand that … as they try to discern the most loving thing to do in life’s many situations.

Did you really think we were talking about sex?

Back to the subject. Hell, what is good for? For someone trying to follow the Way of Universal Love, absolutely nothin'!

[Easyrider]

Back to the subject. Hell, what is good for? For someone trying to follow the Way of Universal Love, absolutely nothin'!

Well for one thing, hell is divine Justice for people who maim and murder, etc., and somehow escape justice on earth. Does your "universal love" concept include justice for those who believe they are unaccountable to anyone for their heinous actions?

Second, what do you propose God does with people like Hitler, Al Zarqawi, Pol Pot, Stalin, Bundy, etc. ? Let them roam around heaven and turn that place into a living hell for all eternity? Does "love" allow one's loved ones to be subjected to that?

[chachynga]

Back to the subject. Hell, what is good for? For someone trying to follow the Way of Universal Love, absolutely nothin'!

Well for one thing, hell is divine Justice for people who maim and murder, etc., and somehow escape justice on earth. Does your "universal love" concept include justice for those who believe they are unaccountable to anyone for their heinous actions?

Second, what do you propose God does with people like Hitler, Al Zarqawi, Pol Pot, Stalin, Bundy, etc. ? Let them roam around heaven and turn that place into a living hell for all eternity? Does "love" allow one's loved ones to be subjected to that?

Think of this:

I Cor. 15 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How could God, without putting an end to all that was evil and bad and his enemy's.... become all in all with his people... ?

After all the wicked are destroyed, and Christ has destroyed Death, those that are clothed in Christ, i.e. christ like, will see the Father as he is without any veil, he will be all in all.

[Cathar1950]

chachynga:

How could God, without putting an end to all that was evil and bad and his enemy's.... become all in all with his people... ?

After all the wicked are destroyed, and Christ has destroyed Death, those that are clothed in Christ, i.e. christ like, will see the Father as he is without any veil, he will be all in all.

How is Paul the liar a source of truth?
He couldn’t even get the Moses covering right.
Can you really even read?


Easyrider:

Shall we include pedophilia in your "universal love" concept? Or a dozen other depraved forms of "love"? How many gays and fornicators have died of AIDS in the name of "love"? How about adultery, where two adulterers "love" one another, while their families are being decimated?

If one thing has become clear to me, the secular humanist concept of "love" is every bit as nonsensical and dangerous to me as the Biblical idea of love is to you.

The NT had to make up a word for love. What is that all about?
What does pedophilia have to do with anything? You sound like John/Al. What a wimp.
How can you even talk about a Humanist concept of love? Do you really think their concept is somehow less then your vague concept of agape?

[joer]

Aristarkos posted this from a Baptist pastor :

Quote:
"I speak as a Christian, but I am not here to defend the Christian faith. I believe that we are at a critical point in world history, one that demands that we learn to love each other across all barriers of race, religion, or rhetoric. Only then can we fulfill our human destiny and bring about the age of love and light foretold in all the sacred texts. I speak as one who believes my way as a Christian is not the only way, nor is it a better way. It is simply another way. And I also speak as one who believes there is a Higher Way, one that most of our religious systems have yet to define and demonstrate fully, and that is the Way of Universal Love."

What an excellent post. And it shows that this Baptist is embracing a basic teaching of Jesus but this truth was meant for all regardless of faith of denomination. And that is love of God and service to the brotherhood and sisterhood of humanity as Jesus has served us. A very simple Higher Way of Universal Love. And so what Smokey says:

So why is he a Christian? Surely a better way for him to approach this is to embrace all people, not their religions. Find out why certain Christians (or whoever) are ok with some things and others aren't.

The only route to Universal Love is by taking down the barriers and the biggest of all are the "set paths".

These set paths are wrong. A sensible individual should not be manipulated by the bible or the qu'ran – that is not the path to Universal Love, far to many people have died (Now and then) for it to be anything of substance and love... Its nothing but total control and it has been going on for years and once man-made religion dies out as we closer to a better understanding of our cosmos -- Universal Love will have to deal with another problem Politics!

Seems to be missing the fact the the Baptist has risen above his denomination, “I am not here to defend the Christian faith… that we learn to love each other across all barriers of race, religion, or rhetoric.” Which seems to agree with Smokeys: “is to embrace all people, not their religions”.
The point is Smokey that it doesn’t matter if he’s (the Baptist Pastor) Christian, Muslim, Jewish or some other religion. He is practicing something that is crossing all those lines. Loving God and serving ALL his brothers and sisters in the world as God has shown us over and over again is what he wants us to do as his Will here on Earth as it is done in heaven.

It’s not so much that the "set paths" are wrong as it is that WE are not doing the Will of God as we travel these “Set Paths”. We don’t need to change denominations to find God. We need to find God to change the denominations we are in, to make them living examples of the Will of God being done on earth.

So like the Baptist said and you partially follow with your denoncement of “Set Paths” it doesn’t really matter what religion you belong to, it’s your love of God and you fellow human being that matters.

Easyrider wrote:

Well for one thing, hell is divine Justice for people who maim and murder, etc., and somehow escape justice on earth. Does your "universal love" concept include justice for those who believe they are unaccountable to anyone for their heinous actions?

Second, what do you propose God does with people like Hitler, Al Zarqawi, Pol Pot, Stalin, Bundy, etc. ? Let them roam around heaven and turn that place into a living hell for all eternity? Does "love" allow one's loved ones to be subjected to that?

Easy, what God does with those people is up to and ONLY up to God. Jesus taught us forgiveness and that God is merciful. And that God loves us so much he even gave up his “only” Son for his love for us. And what did Jesus show us Easy? Mercy, Divine Mercy! As he hung dying on the Cross crucified by us because of our errors of perception (Sin) He pleads with Our Father, “forgive them for they know not what they do.” It almost makes me cry Easy! The depth of his mercy. That’s what he showed us Easy.

ALL Judgement belongs to God. If we follow what Jesus taught we can only pray for Hitler, Al Zarqawi, Pol Pot, Stalin and Bundy to repent, recognise their errors and beg forgiveness for their wrong doing and ask God to be Merciful.

That’s what Jesus taught Easy. Now the question is, “Can we do it?”

Aristarkos wrote:

Easyrider, didn't we already cover this in another topic? When a Baptist pastor uses the phase "The Way of Universal Love", there's probably no need to panic. Universal Love = what would bring the most long-term benefit for all. You know: loving-kindness, 1 Cor. 13, Gal. 5:22, God is Love.

Did you really think we were talking about sex?

Your right Aristarkos. We talk about a Higher Love and someone tries to debase it with allusions to what they think of as sexual depravities.

Cathar1950 wrote: in response to a part of a Pauline letter in Chachynga’s post :

After all the wicked are destroyed, and Christ has destroyed Death, those that are clothed in Christ, i.e. christ like, will see the Father as he is without any veil, he will be all in all.

.

How is Paul the liar a source of truth?
He couldn’t even get the Moses covering right.
Can you really even read?

So here’s a quote that may touch Cathar1950 with it’s opinion of Paul and maybe a few others like Aristarkos, Smokey, the Baptist pastor with it’s opinion about the real truth, “security in the Father's love, with joy and satisfaction consequent upon sharing this love in the service of the human brotherhood.”

P.2071 - §1 The Hellenization of Christianity started in earnest on that eventful day when the Apostle Paul stood before the council of the Areopagus in Athens and told the Athenians about "the Unknown God." There, under the shadow of the Acropolis, this Roman citizen proclaimed to these Greeks his version of the new religion which had taken origin in the Jewish land of Galilee. And there was something strangely alike in Greek philosophy and many of the teachings of Jesus. They had a common goal--both aimed at the emergence of the individual. The Greek, at social and political emergence; Jesus, at moral and spiritual emergence. The Greek taught intellectual liberalism leading to political freedom; Jesus taught spiritual liberalism leading to religious liberty. These two ideas put together constituted a new and mighty charter for human freedom; they presaged man's social, political, and spiritual liberty.
P.2071 - §4 2. Paul and his successors were willing but shrewd and sagacious compromisers; they were keen theologic traders.
P.2071 - §5 At the time Paul stood up in Athens preaching "Christ and Him Crucified," the Greeks were spiritually hungry; they were inquiring, interested, and actually looking for spiritual truth. Never forget that at first the Romans fought Christianity, while the Greeks embraced it, and that it was the Greeks who literally forced the Romans subsequently to accept this new religion, as then modified, as a part of Greek culture.
P.2072 - §3 Alexander had charged on the East with the cultural gift of the civilization of Greece; Paul assaulted the West with the Christian version of the gospel of Jesus. And wherever the Greek culture prevailed throughout the West, there Hellenized Christianity took root.
P.2091 - §10 Some day a reformation in the Christian church may strike deep enough to get back to the unadulterated religious teachings of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. You may preach a religion about Jesus, but, perforce, you must live the religion of Jesus. In the enthusiasm of Pentecost, Peter unintentionally inaugurated a new religion, the religion of the risen and glorified Christ. The Apostle Paul later on transformed this new gospel into Christianity, a religion embodying his own theologic views and portraying his own personal experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road. The gospel of the kingdom is founded on the personal religious experience of the Jesus of Galilee; Christianity is founded almost exclusively on the personal religious experience of the Apostle Paul. Almost the whole of the New Testament is devoted, not to the portrayal of the significant and inspiring religious life of Jesus, but to a discussion of Paul's religious experience and to a portrayal of his personal religious convictions. The only notable exceptions to this statement, aside from certain parts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are the Book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James. Even Peter, in his writing, only once reverted to the personal religious life of his Master. The New Testament is a superb Christian document, but it is only meagerly Jesusonian.P.2092 - §4 Jesus founded the religion of personal experience in doing the will of God and serving the human brotherhood; Paul founded a religion in which the glorified Jesus became the object of worship and the brotherhood consisted of fellow believers in the divine Christ. In the bestowal of Jesus these two concepts were potential in his divine-human life, and it is indeed a pity that his followers failed to create a unified religion which might have given proper recognition to both
P.2095 - §3 The Hebrews had a religion of moral sublimity; the Greeks evolved a religion of beauty; Paul and his conferees founded a religion of faith, hope, and charity. Jesus revealed and exemplified a religion of love: security in the Father's love, with joy and satisfaction consequent upon sharing this love in the service of the human brotherhood.

Harvey1: wrote;

That's not nice, John. Why be like that? He's trying to relay his views for the benefit of others, so why discourage someone from expressing their opinions?

Thanks!

[smokeyparkin]

joer wrote:

It’s not so much that the "set paths" are wrong as it is that WE are not doing the Will of God as we travel these “Set Paths”. We don’t need to change denominations to find God. We need to find God to change the denominations we are in, to make them living examples of the Will of God being done on earth.

So like the Baptist said and you partially follow with your denoncement of “Set Paths” it doesn’t really matter what religion you belong to, it’s your love of God and you fellow human being that matters.

That is fantastic. You are absolutely right!

More people like you please!

Consider my viewpoint changed!

[Aristarkos]

Nicely done, joer! Great post!

One point I want to add: In some churches those "set paths" turn into "dead-ends" leading to a "House of God" with no windows and no doors! ... and sometimes it's more than a person can handle to get the fellowship back on track to the Way of Universal Love. In some cases it good to find or even make a new path ... a path of peace. http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/uufaq.html

Does your "universal love" concept include justice for those who believe they are unaccountable to anyone for their heinous actions?

From a faithful perspective, what they do, they do to themselves. They cannot touch what God saves. Hitler must be like a whining infant in the eyes of God.

Peace is more important than justice. Peace was not made for the sake of justice, but justice for the sake of peace.

[Easyrider]

joer wrote:

It’s not so much that the "set paths" are wrong as it is that WE are not doing the Will of God as we travel these “Set Paths”. We don’t need to change denominations to find God. We need to find God to change the denominations we are in, to make them living examples of the Will of God being done on earth.

So like the Baptist said and you partially follow with your denoncement of “Set Paths” it doesn’t really matter what religion you belong to, it’s your love of God and you fellow human being that matters.

That is fantastic. You are absolutely right!

Am I mistaken in understanding that when Smokey says, "it doesn’t really matter what religion you belong to, it’s your love of God and you fellow human being that matters..." that one can worship some other so-called "god" (such as Baal or Satan) and that doesn't really matter?

This sounds like the proverbial "all paths lead to heaven" argument, which isn't what the Bible or Jesus teaches.

But maybe I am misunderstanding the writer.

[Aristarkos]

Am I mistaken in understanding that when Smokey says, "it doesn’t really matter what religion you belong to, it’s your love of God and you fellow human being that matters..." that one can worship some other so-called "god" (such as Baal or Satan) and that doesn't really matter?

If there are religions that are not in-sync with the love of God and others, they can, of course, be ruled out.