The Gabriel Stone: what does it tell us?

[polonius]

There is a considerable debate among archeologists as to when the “Gabriel Stone� was written. If written before the time of Christ, could this be the basis of the Resurrection stories?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/3 ... 84953.html

Any opinions?

[Difflugia]

...Matthew is the only one that says "three days and nights," but also says that Jesus died on the day before "the day after Friday."

Please show the scripture.

Matthew 12:40 and 27:62.

John says the Passover was on the Sabbath after Jesus dies

Please show the scripture.

John 18:28 and 19:31.

Ok, I can agree that the day begun at sunrise and night at sundown (It is not only Greek system, but common in many ancient cultures). It is not necessary exactly 21:00, or 9 pm as in modern western system. Makes no meaningful difference to my point.

There's nothing about "hour of night" in any of the gospels.

First hour of the night disciples of Jesus ate the meal.

If you say so. The text just says that evening had arrived.

Which obviously means beginning of night and a new 24 h day.

You can call it the "beginning of night" if you want, but a new 24 hour day starts "early in the morning."

Mark doesn't seem to have the word "daybreak".

It's two words: εὐθὺς πρωῒ, or "early morning." Matthew's is much closer to a literal daybreak: Πρωΐας γενομένης. It's even more existential than the English daybreak, literally meaning something like, "morning having become." Luke used the same verbs, but with a slightly different voice: Καὶ ὡς ἐγένετο ἡμέρα, or "And when it became day." John's is the most colorful: καὶ εὐθέως ἀλέκτωρ ἐφώνησεν, "and immediately a rooster crowed."

And it doesn't tell the exact time. It can be said that morning begins right after midnight.

It can be said. Anyone that does so would be wrong, but it can be said.

Unless you can "show the scripture," of course.

And it seems disciples and Jesus ate the Passover in the first hour of the night,

"Please show the scripture."

and many Jews ate the Passover after the judgment, in the late hours of the night, in the morning.

Which is it? Late hours of the night or in the morning?

"Please show the scripture."

Bible tells Passover meal is 14th day of the month. The next day is the feast of unleavened bread,

I'm not sure what that means to you, but Jesus and the disciples ate one meal in the Synoptics and called it the Passover:

Now on the first day of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, Where wilt thou that we make ready for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Teacher saith, My time is at hand; I keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

The gospels don't specify a date, so pick one.

which is the Shabbat day, because no work was allowed to be done that day.

It's nowhere called a Sabbath. The only definition of Sabbath in the Bible that I'm aware of is the seventh of a group of days or years. In some of the pre-exilic texts (2 Kings, for example), an argument could be made that quarter moons are Sabbaths, but that's about it. There are other festivals and holy days on which people don't work, but work being prohibited doesn't make it a Sabbath.

The 14th day is the preparation day for that.

Only when the 14th falls on a Friday.

On the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to Yahweh. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no regular work. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to Yahweh seven days. In the seventh day is a holy convoca-tion: you shall do no regular work.'"
Lev. 23:6-8

The seventh day could maybe be called a Sabbath. It's not, but it could be. The first six days definitely aren't, though. Unless, of course, you've got some "scripture" you could "show."

"Preparation" means Friday. Mark 15:42 explicitly says that παρασκευὴ ("Preparation") means the προσάββατον ("day before the Sabbath").

Nice, there are also other Shabbat days than the Saturday, which is why there is also other preparation days.

"Please show the scripture."

[1213]

...Matthew is the only one that says "three days and nights," but also says that Jesus died on the day before "the day after Friday."

Please show the scripture.

Matthew 12:40 and 27:62.

Ok, thank you. The preparation day in Matt. 27:62 is the preparation day when the Passover lamb was prepared, 13th day of the month.

And He sent Peter and John, saying, Going, prepare for us the passover, that we may eat.
Luke 22:8

There are more than one preparation day in the Bible.

John says the Passover was on the Sabbath after Jesus dies

Please show the scripture.

John 18:28 and 19:31.

Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas into the praetorium, and it was early. And they did not enter into the praetorium that they might not be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover.
John 18:28
Then, since it was Preparation, that the bodies not remain on the cross on the sabbath, for great was the day of that sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they be taken away.
John 19:31

Those don't say "the Passover was on the Sabbath after Jesus dies". Passover was to be eaten early on 14th day of the month, before daylight. It was possible, because the judgment was very early.

Ok, I can agree that the day begun at sunrise and night at sundown (It is not only Greek system, but common in many ancient cultures). It is not necessary exactly 21:00, or 9 pm as in modern western system. Makes no meaningful difference to my point.

There's nothing about "hour of night" in any of the gospels.

It is the common knowledge that time was divided to 12 hours of the night and 12 hours of the day.

You can call it the "beginning of night" if you want, but a new 24 hour day starts "early in the morning."

For Jews a new 24 h days begins in sundown, about 21:00.

It can be said. Anyone that does so would be wrong,

Why? I don't think there is any exact definition for morning. And Bible indicates that for example 01:00 could be called early morning.

And it seems disciples and Jesus ate the Passover in the first hour of the night,

"Please show the scripture."

It is logically so. The rules say that the Passover must be eaten in the night, before day time. And because they ate it before Jesus was captured in about midnight, they likely ate it right in the beginning of a new day (about 21:00).

and many Jews ate the Passover after the judgment, in the late hours of the night, in the morning.

Which is it? Late hours of the night or in the morning?

"Please show the scripture."

Night was divided into 12 hours. For example the 6-12 hours of the night are in the morning. The 12 hour is about 05:00-06:00.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_time

Only when the 14th falls on a Friday.

No, because the 15 th day no work was allowed to do, people needed to prepare to that also, which is why there would be preparation day anyway, even if not Friday.

On the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to Yahweh. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no regular work. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to Yahweh seven days. In the seventh day is a holy convocation: you shall do no regular work.'"
Lev. 23:6-8

The seventh day could maybe be called a Sabbath. It's not, but it could be. The first six days definitely aren't, though.

Why seventh day, but not the first? It is said that both of them were days of holy convocation and no work was allowed to be done.

"Preparation" means Friday. Mark 15:42 explicitly says that παρασκευὴ ("Preparation") means the προσάββατον ("day before the Sabbath").

Nice, there are also other Shabbat days than the Saturday, which is why there is also other preparation days.

"Please show the scripture."

Do you remember Lev. 23:6-8?

[TRANSPONDER]

I read through that a couple of times and could see absolutely nothing to make a case for an extra day between crucifixion day, the sabbath day (Luke) when they rested and the Sunday (first day of the week) when the women go to the tomb. The extra day (which still doesn't add up to three days and three nights (1) is nowhere found "The Bible doesn't say that", and it is frankly denialist and Inventing Stuff to put in a second Sabbath and extra day with nobody mentioning it. There is NO evidence for this at all. Only a desire for this addition (as my exchange with Difflugia shows) to the bit on the sign of Jonah )preaching to Assyria in Luke but Matthew adds a three day resurrection of his own. I think the desire to make Matthew's over - literalism of his own, not original Gospel material - work, whatever it takes.

I see nothing about 14 Nisan that tells us anything about what day or days anything would fall on, Sabbath or Passover sabbath. And the vagueness about dawn is sheer misdirection because there is a difference between night and day even if one cannot pinpoint the exact cut - off.

Whatever the Believer believes on Faith, I see nothing so far to persuade me that there were really two Passovers, one before the arrest and crucifixion and one after, or that there were three full days and nights between crucifixion and resurrection, never mind that Luke tells us that Jesus had risen (along with the spirit of the penitent thief) before he was even put in the tomb. But who said it had to make any sense?

p. s. Leviticus 4 “‘These are the Lord’s appointed festivals, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: 5 The Lord’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord’s Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. 8 For seven days present a food offering to the Lord. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.’”
What does that tell us about which or on what days a festival would fall? First to seventh days relate to the festival, not the week, if that is where the confusion was.

(1) day 1 crucifixion popped in tomb towards evening. just enough time to mix up some spices. (1 night)
day 2 tomb guard appointed while the sabbath resting is going on. (day 1, night 2)
Day 3 another Sabbath so our pal claims, but surely you need another preparation day before then. so that's a day 4 (day 3 and 4 and night 3
day 4 Sunday resurrection. night 4 before Sunday dawn. So drop the extra preparation day and you have three days and nights, but a second sabbath without a preparation day.

[Difflugia]

Ok, thank you. The preparation day in Matt. 27:62 is the preparation day when the Passover lamb was prepared, 13th day of the month.

It can't be. From the point of view of Matthew 27:62, the previous day was the Preparation and that's the day that Jesus was crucified. The day before that is the day that they ate the Passover meal. The Passover lamb would have been prepared the day before that. Even if you play apologist with "actually the day started the evening before," there's still at least one extra day in there.

In Matthew 27:62, "Preparation" means the day before Saturday.

And He sent Peter and John, saying, Going, prepare for us the passover, that we may eat.
Luke 22:8

There are more than one preparation day in the Bible.

Intentionally or not, you're conflating different uses of the English word "preparation" in ways that don't match the Greek text. First, the day that Peter and John "prepare" for the Passover isn't called a "preparation day" in any sense. You're calling it that and trying to smuggle it back into the text. Second, the "prepare" of Peter and John uses a completely different word (ἑτοιμάζω) than the "preparation" for a Sabbath (παρασκευή as a noun from the verb παρασκευάζω). They're unrelated.

Those don't say "the Passover was on the Sabbath after Jesus dies". Passover was to be eaten early on 14th day of the month, before daylight. It was possible, because the judgment was very early.

They say that the Passover meal hadn't been eaten yet when Jesus was about to be crucified. They then say that Jesus was crucified on the Friday of the Passover week (John 19:14) and that the day of the Passover itself fell on the next day, the Sabbath (John 19:31).

It is the common knowledge that time was divided to 12 hours of the night and 12 hours of the day.

Even if that's true, it damages your argument. You're trying to conflate night hours and morning hours. Are they the same or not?

For Jews a new 24 h days begins in sundown, about 21:00.

You can say that all you want, but it doesn't somehow turn 9 o'clock at night into morning.

It can be said. Anyone that does so would be wrong,

Why? I don't think there is any exact definition for morning.

We know what "morning" was in contemporary Greek literature. You can pretend that it meant something else, but that's the slippery slope of apologetics. If you squint just right...

And Bible indicates that for example 01:00 could be called early morning.

Does it? Where?

And it seems disciples and Jesus ate the Passover in the first hour of the night,

"Please show the scripture."

It is logically so. The rules say that the Passover must be eaten in the night, before day time. And because they ate it before Jesus was captured in about midnight, they likely ate it right in the beginning of a new day (about 21:00).

Regardless of your confusion between night and day, you're trying to assign precise times where the text itself is vague. If you want to do that for yourself, that's fine. If you want to turn that into a "therefore" to your argument, you have to do better than that.

Night was divided into 12 hours. For example the 6-12 hours of the night are in the morning. The 12 hour is about 05:00-06:00.

You keep sliding back and forth between being sloppy and vague and then being precise. Nowhere in the gospels are there comments about "hours of the night." All of the times mentioned are from sunrise. If you want to include "hours of the night" in your argument, you have to explain how you established those from the times that are actually given in the text.

Only when the 14th falls on a Friday.

No, because the 15 th day no work was allowed to do, people needed to prepare to that also, which is why there would be preparation day anyway, even if not Friday.

The day called "Preparation" is Friday. If you can find a reference anywhere where "Preparation" is used to refer to a day other than Friday, then come back to me and we'll talk.

Why seventh day, but not the first? It is said that both of them were days of holy convocation and no work was allowed to be done.

Because "seventh" is what a Sabbath is.

Do you remember Lev. 23:6-8?

Leviticus 23:6-8 has nothing to do with Sabbaths. Verse 3 does, though: "Six days shall work be done: but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work: it is a sabbath unto Jehovah in all your dwellings."

Every Sabbath is a feast and every feast, a holy convocation. Unfortunately for your argument, it doesn't work backwards. Not every feast or holy convocation is a Sabbath. You're calling things Sabbaths that aren't.

[benchwarmer]

It might also be instructive to learn about whale anatomy or fish/sea mammals in general. Hint, there is no breathable air chamber inside anything's stomach assuming a human could even end up there (maybe in a sperm whale). ...

If a whale breaths air, I don't see how there could not be air chamber. But, the "fish" could be also some other than modern fish or whale.

So now you think Jonah was sucked into a whale's lungs instead of into it's belly? Do you just keep shifting the story until something sticks?

Again, I refer you to whale anatomy. Please find for us a whale that has a large enough blow hole to suck a human into it (and not cause the whale to suffocate and die in the process).

Fish don't breath air, so that's not going to work.

Honestly, you would do better off to just say something like "God can do anything and thus He put Jonah in a 'sleep' that required no breathing". I mean, if God magic is on the table, it can be pulled out and used to solve anything. I get that some don't want to keep playing the 'magic' card as it's pretty clear not many would buy it, but if you really believe everything in the Bible, it seems like the best card to play.

[1213]

It might also be instructive to learn about whale anatomy or fish/sea mammals in general. Hint, there is no breathable air chamber inside anything's stomach assuming a human could even end up there (maybe in a sperm whale). ...

If a whale breaths air, I don't see how there could not be air chamber. But, the "fish" could be also some other than modern fish or whale.

So now you think Jonah was sucked into a whale's lungs instead of into it's belly?

No, I don't know yet enough to say what happened. But, belly is not necessary the same stomach. It can mean the area where lungs and stomach is in a whale.

Again, I refer you to whale anatomy. Please find for us a whale that has a large enough blow hole to suck a human into it (and not cause the whale to suffocate and die in the process).

If I can't find you such a whale, it does not necessary mean that such a whale never existed. But, perhaps Jonah didn't drop into blowhole. The story tells Jonah was swallowed and in a belly of a "fish". With only that information, I don't know what exactly it meant. That is why I also can't say it is impossible, even if you don't know how could it be possible.

[1213]

Intentionally or not, you're conflating different uses of the English word "preparation" in ways that don't match the Greek text. First, the day that Peter and John "prepare" for the Passover isn't called a "preparation day" in any sense. You're calling it that and trying to smuggle it back into the text. Second, the "prepare" of Peter and John uses a completely different word (ἑτοιμάζω) than the "preparation" for a Sabbath (παρασκευή as a noun from the verb παρασκευάζω). They're unrelated.

Prepare and preparation are not the same word even in English, but the essential meaning is the same, in both cases people are preparing. And any day that people are preparing, can be called a preparation day.

They say that the Passover meal hadn't been eaten yet when Jesus was about to be crucified. They then say that Jesus was crucified on the Friday of the Passover week (John 19:14) and that the day of the Passover itself fell on the next day, the Sabbath (John 19:31).

That is your interpretation. There is no word Friday in the Bible. And the preparation was for the first day of the feast of unleavened bread that would be a Shabbat day, even if not Saturday.

And it was the Preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold, your king!
John 19:14
Then, since it was Preparation, that the bodies not remain on the cross on the sabbath, for great was the day of that sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they be taken away.
John 19:31

You're trying to conflate night hours and morning hours. Are they the same or not?

There is night hours and day hours. And they were counted usually from sundown to sunrise. Morning is a period that, by what I know, can be on both, night and day hours. For example people could have though that morning begins after 6th hour of night. I don't know any exact definition for morning in the Bible.

And Bible indicates that for example 01:00 could be called early morning.

Does it? Where?

For example this indicates that morning could be very early, before sun has risen:

In the morning, while it was still very dark, Jesus got up and went to a deserted place and prayed there.
Mark. 1:35

You keep sliding back and forth between being sloppy and vague and then being precise. Nowhere in the gospels are there comments about "hours of the night." All of the times mentioned are from sunrise. If you want to include "hours of the night" in your argument, you have to explain how you established those from the times that are actually given in the text.

For example here John speaks about sixth hour. Logically it is the sixth hour of the night, because Bible tells it was the third hour when Jesus was crucified. They don't go back in time, they are speaking of hours of night and hours of day, as it was common in that era.

When Pilate therefore heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called "The Pavement," but in Hebrew, "Gabbatha." Now it was the Prepa-ration Day of the Passover, at about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!" They cried out, "Away with him! Away with him! Crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!" So then he delivered him to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led him away.
John 19:13-16

If you can find a reference anywhere where "Preparation" is used to refer to a day other than Friday, then come back to me and we'll talk.

John 19:31

Why seventh day, but not the first? It is said that both of them were days of holy convocation and no work was allowed to be done.

Because "seventh" is what a Sabbath is.

The seventh day of the feast of unleavened bread can be also other day than Saturday.

Every Sabbath is a feast and every feast, a holy convocation. Unfortunately for your argument, it doesn't work backwards. Not every feast or holy convocation is a Sabbath. You're calling things Sabbaths that aren't.

Shabbat is a day of rest. Any day that is for rest and work is not allowed, can be called a Shabbat day.

"The word Shabbat derives from the Hebrew root ש־ב־ת. Although frequently translated as "rest" (noun or verb), another accurate translation is "ceasing [from work]."[4] The notion of active cessation from labour is also regarded[by whom?] as more consistent with an omnipotent God's activity on the seventh day of creation according to Genesis."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat

[TRANSPONDER]

The above is all confusion and trying to argue that the Bible doesn't mean what it says, or rather means what it does not say . But such confusion will not fool anyone who understands what is going on.

First day of the week when it was getting light enough to see was when the empty tomb was discovered. That makes it Sunday.
The Bible says that was when the Sabbath was over. That makes the previous day Sabbath. Saturday. They rested. It was a Saturday Sabbath whether or not it was also (as 'Great or High day can be understood) Passover.

Where our pal tries to find an extra day is in putting a day in before then, Friday when Passover fell, which would make crucifixion day on Thursday and the last supper on Wednesday.

Whether the preparation day was a ritual designation for getting work done as the next day, no work could be done, or just when they were getting stuff ready for whatever they were going to do next day doesn't make any difference.

Nor does the reckoning of a new day starting at evening and dawn being half - way through the day which ends (like crucifixion day) when it starts getting dark

This can confuse, but once understood, doesn't alter anything, no more than 14th Nissan or a week of the festival of Matzos. When Passover was eaten was a specific day, not any day during the week.

That is just trying to make confusion and John looks clearly as though the crucified bodies had to be down before the day that ritual forbade bodies to remain hanging was approaching, whether that was a Saturday sabbath or a Passover sabbath or both.

That actually makes no difference except - as i said - an extra Sabbath separate from the Saturda sabbath would require another day of preparation, and it is even harder toi swallow that none of the gospels bothered to mention this.

Our pal is simply making stuff up to try to wangle an extra day to make Matthew's three days work, when it doesn't. It works as Third day but not as three full days. But Bible literalist inerrancy apparently requires that there can be no errors in God's word.