Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[AB]

We will just have to agree to disagree then.[/quote]

Cool. Take care brother.

[AB]

What reality?
Do you think the tree thing really happened and the snake talked to Eve?

Yes

Do you think the ate the fruit and their eyes were magically opened

Eyes opened = consciousness of sin. Nothing "magical" about it.

and it is historical? Do you believe these reworked myths are fact?

Yes, I think it is historical. But, I disagree that the event was reworked. I believe as told in the bible, it is fact.

[Simon's Legacy]

Metatron, I agree with you. Both tempting innocence and cursing children for the parents error are senseless interpretations of the story. There are more sensible ways to see the story. One of them is to recognize it as an abstract depiction of human nature. What's the one thing that causes more harm and calamity in the world? Isn't it the claim that my group knows that we do right and your group does evil? And we know its our job to kill you for it? Don't our greatest failures come because we encounter human problems and instead of looking for ways to understand and deal with them, we focus instead on blame, fault and sin. The knowledge of good and evil is, indeed, the curse of humanity.

[AB]

Metatron, I agree with you. Both tempting innocence and cursing children for the parents error are senseless interpretations of the story.

God is not the one who tempted. And it is Adam/Eve that made the error.. not the parent.

[Simon's Legacy]

Ab, of course the serpent did the tempting. But Metatron's point was twofold 1) how cruel of god to place such a harmful tree right in the middle of the garden 2) how unfair to tell his creations, who at that time could not tell right from wrong, that it was wrong to take from the tree.
But on the other point, we seem to be in agreement. If there was any wrong done, it was only Adam and Eve who incurred the sin--not the resulting human race they parented. Taken as literal history, cursing all humanity for the sin of Adam makes no sense at all. But as a fable about human character, I think it hits home that we are all born into the human condition.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Ab, of course the serpent did the tempting. But Metatron's point was twofold 1) how cruel of god to place such a harmful tree right in the middle of the garden 2) how unfair to tell his creations, who at that time could not tell right from wrong, that it was wrong to take from the tree.
But on the other point, we seem to be in agreement. If there was any wrong done, it was only Adam and Eve who incurred the sin--not the resulting human race they parented. Taken as literal history, cursing all humanity for the sin of Adam makes no sense at all. But as a fable about human character, I think it hits home that we are all born into the human condition.

But God did not condem the whole world to hell at this point. He cursed women with painful childbirth and the ground so that our work would be hard.

16 To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

So God was not cruel at all, He told them the tree was harmful, and they ate it anyway.

You also state that they could not tell right from wrong. Do you have some scripture to back that up with?

[Metatron]

Ab, of course the serpent did the tempting. But Metatron's point was twofold 1) how cruel of god to place such a harmful tree right in the middle of the garden 2) how unfair to tell his creations, who at that time could not tell right from wrong, that it was wrong to take from the tree.
But on the other point, we seem to be in agreement. If there was any wrong done, it was only Adam and Eve who incurred the sin--not the resulting human race they parented. Taken as literal history, cursing all humanity for the sin of Adam makes no sense at all. But as a fable about human character, I think it hits home that we are all born into the human condition.

But God did not condem the whole world to hell at this point. He cursed women with painful childbirth and the ground so that our work would be hard.

16 To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

So God was not cruel at all, He told them the tree was harmful, and they ate it anyway.

You also state that they could not tell right from wrong. Do you have some scripture to back that up with?

1. Painful childbirth and hardwork tilling the soil were hardly the only penalties exacted here. God also drove them from their homes (in paradise, no less!) and prevented them from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life, thus insuring their deaths.

2. Is there a reason God also inflicts these punishments on Adam and Eve's descendants?

3. Do you have some scripture to back up your idea that Adam and Eve DID know good before eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? To me the plain reading of the story indicates the fruit is what inaugurates their knowledge of morality, i.e. their eyes were opened, they suddenly knew of their nakedness, etc. I believe it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that the plain meaning of the passage is not the correct one.

[AB]

Ab, of course the serpent did the tempting. But Metatron's point was twofold 1) how cruel of god to place such a harmful tree right in the middle of the garden

Man this is an intense thread. Keeps on going. Love it...

I feel it's not so muc about the tree. More importantly, Adam/Eves decision against God is what was harmful for them. And that is the core of the whole issue.. deciding against God. And they were equiped with the results of what would happen if they did chose that tree. I just don't see how this is unfair

.2) how unfair to tell his creations, who at that time could not tell right from wrong, that it was wrong to take from the tree.

Let's keep this in perspective. Take wrong and right out of the Mix. God told them not to eat that fruit. There it is. That is the landscape.. it is against God to eat that tree. Adam and Eve, although tricked, ultimately made a choice against God. And there are natural consequences to that. They chose independence from God and thats what they got. Again, totally fair.

But on the other point, we seem to be in agreement. If there was any wrong done, it was only Adam and Eve who incurred the sin--not the resulting human race they parented. Taken as literal history, cursing all humanity for the sin of Adam makes no sense at all. But as a fable about human character, I think it hits home that we are all born into the human condition.

Adam and Eve are the mother and father of humanity. Unfortunately, it is very natural to take on certain traits as are parents. Again, this is a reality based model. But remember, God has offered a way out of this predicament through Jesus. Very fair of the Him I think.

[Metatron]

Adam and Eve are the mother and father of humanity. Unfortunately, it is very natural to take on certain traits as are parents. Again, this is a reality based model. But remember, God has offered a way out of this predicament through Jesus. Very fair of the Him I think.

I still don't get how you think this pass down of responsibility for an ancestor's sin is reasonable. It's like being jailed for a crime committed by one's grandfather. Nor do I know what you mean by "a reality based model"? In what way does it model reality? And I don't think God's offering a way out of a predicament of his own creation meets my personal definition of fairness.

[AB]

I still don't get how you think this pass down of responsibility for an ancestor's sin is reasonable. It's like being jailed for a crime committed by one's grandfather. Nor do I know what you mean by "a reality based model"? In what way does it model reality? And I don't think God's offering a way out of a predicament of his own creation meets my personal definition of fairness.[/quote]

Great questions. Before I respond with my thoughts, I would like to clarify one variable.. Do you think God is responsible for our bad behavior(via the "curse") or is our bad behavior outside the Adam/Eve Narrative and it is "just us"?

Reality based model: I just mean the facts lie in life and not theory.