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Replying to otseng in post #4080]
a) He that sent me is with me.
b) I do always those things that please him.
c) I am not missing the mark.
The actual truth therein is that the benefit it provides is within the means to study through a particular framework of reference which enables the observer-participator of a) b) and c) to "see" The Creator Mind as it truly is.
This is not answering my question.
It certainly is answering your question.
If you cannot present an actual list of benefits, then who's to say there are actually any benefits.
I did produce an actual list of benefits. I did not make my own list, but used an example of another list recorded in a biblical passage.
Matthew 6:25-34 KJV
It's like a commercial saying to buy a product and the benefits will only be seen after you buy the product.
Even so, you are arguing against the one who produced that list, so would have to take that up with Jesus is (as it appears) you have a problem with it.
You have to state what is the evidence and arguments are in order for someone to be able to confirm it. You can't just ask someone to go and study and find the evidence as your evidence.
This might surprise you coming from me, but I do think there are arguments and evidence to support the idea we're in God's mind. But I'll leave it up to you to find it and present it.
I am surprise (and why wouldn't I be) because now you are declaring something disingenuous is occurring between you and I (individual growing human personalities).
Rather that pointing as to where the source of that thing which is between us (I will refer to it as a veil/curtain) I will leave you to your concealing of those things, and to your thinking that I am also concealing those evidences from you (and the reader in general).
What we each independently think of as "evidence we exist within The Creator Mind" can remain a secret unshared between us for the time being then.
What claim is it you think I am made and have to back up?
We are in God's mind.
Indeed. I have offered - let's call them "points of view" - what I think of as evidence supporting the notion.
I have even shown that I can use the same biblical verses that you have used (to support your notion that The Creator Mind exists independently of the creation), to also support my notion that we exist within The Creator Mind.
I have further elaborated in my posts, by offering ("less biblical") examples of what I think of as also being evidence.
You haven't directly opposed any of those examples as being non-indicators (re my "claim") and now with this extra data you have provided (re your thinking we could be existing within The Creator Mind), I am left wondering if we have reached a point where those things which have you thinking that way, ought to be placed upon our table of discussion out in the open as it were.
Then perhaps we can begin to sort the data and discuss the "most likely" truth, from the results.
The claim I am making (re "evidence") is that a human personality has to study for themselves and align their understanding with what actually is true.
Isn't this true for everyone regardless of their position?
Yes. It is yet another trait that both atheist and theist human personalities have to follow.
What's the point of making this claim if it's a tautology?
I make the observation and then make the claim that the evidence being observed shows us that we exist within The Creator Mind.
A smallish part the overall evidence (that I consider "evidence") is the existence of the Bible - which is why I am specifically posting in this particular thread.
Re that, my understanding is
IF
We exist within The Creator Mind.
THEN
What reason is there for us to think the Bible God is outside The Creator Mind?
I see no evidence in the whole Bible that would have us need to believe that the Bible God is outside The Creator Mind.
Do you see any biblical evidence that we have reason to believe that the Bible God is outside The Creator Mind?
What is salient is verifiable evidence and logical arguments. But if you want to use ChatGPT as a source, it does not state whether the universe is real or not:
Why would you think GPT would have anything to say on the matter, since I was not inputting that data into GPT prompts.
My argument remains that there is no difference between what is Real, and The Creator Mind.
GPT kept its responses "Realman" (re "strawman").
Your thinking you are arguing about what is real and what is not, is not on the same track as what I am arguing.
OK, but this can apply to either the universe being actually real or not.
Again, I am not arguing any such thing.
Rather,
IF
We exist within The Creator Mind,
THEN
Whatever is experienced can be considered Real.
That is what I am actually arguing...
You and I are engaged in a dialogue exploring the concept of reality existing within The Creator Mind, as well as its implications for understanding biblical teachings.
You might be, but I'm specifically focusing on the justification for such a belief, which has yet to be presented.
Ironically, atheists are "awaiting" the same from theists re the claim that The Creator Mind exists (let alone exists outside of the creation.) I have already pointed this (irony) out in prior posts.
You are conflating Simulation Theory with being within The Creator Mind. These are two different subjects.
I'm not addressing your Creator Mind theory, but I'm addressing what is mentioned in the original article and the dominant alternative theory to the universe being real.
Then we could agree to drop that line of argument, since my focus is on addressing the "We Exist Within The Creator Mind" theory.