Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to OneJack in post #39]

Saul should have learned to be patient in waiting for the Lord’s response while he continued to show repentance for his unbecoming act, as a good servant.

That isn't what Samuel's ghost says to Saul.

He departed first before he got nothing. Remember the scenario where Saul kills by 10k, but David kills by 100k - envy entered into his heart against David.

What a thing to envy.....

The thing of envy - Fame and Glory! Saul was the king, yet his follower, David, almost surpassed him in every act. Worse, an impending FORFEITURE of his throne may come sooner or later.

The thing of envy - killing 100k instead of killing 10k?


Would you cut the same slack to any other deity for doing the same thing?

Sorry, your premise - ‘any other deity’ - is not in my bucket list, hence, non-negotiable! I don’t succumb to any opinion alone in this issue of ‘any other deity,’ come what may!

It doesn't really matter if you believe in any other deity or not. If you wouldn't cut even a nonexistent deity the same slack for the same behavior, you're still setting a double standard.

Who claims what, in this context, knowing that you’re only reading the bible, which is not God Himself, nor is it the Chronicler nor Saul? What would be the big deal even if they were both wrong?

If two Bible authors are wrong, then how many others might be wrong?

1. Face reality - you’re just reading and posting biblical passages, which you misinterpreted, wittingly or unwittingly, as the word of God.

2. The word of God is the real and forever living Lord Jesus Christ, to whom we can only hear the pure and authentic words of God, across all generations, and from eternity to eternity.

If belief in Jesus doesn't come from the Bible, what's to stop anyone from making up their own Jesus?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #39]

Saul should have learned to be patient in waiting for the Lord’s response while he continued to show repentance for his unbecoming act, as a good servant.

That isn't what Samuel's ghost says to Saul.

How could it be Samuel’s ghost when the woman with a familiar spirit was the one who called the ghost?

He departed first before he got nothing. Remember the scenario where Saul kills by 10k, but David kills by 100k - envy entered into his heart against David.

What a thing to envy.....

The thing of envy - Fame and Glory! Saul was the king, yet his follower, David, almost surpassed him in every act. Worse, an impending FORFEITURE of his throne may come sooner or later.

The thing of envy - killing 100k instead of killing 10k?

Why not when the king’s personality, as a warrior and standard, is at stake?

Would you cut the same slack to any other deity for doing the same thing?

Sorry, your premise - ‘any other deity’ - is not in my bucket list, hence, non-negotiable! I don’t succumb to any opinion alone in this issue of ‘any other deity,’ come what may!

It doesn't really matter if you believe in any other deity or not. If you wouldn't cut even a nonexistent deity the same slack for the same behavior, you're still setting a double standard.

Ignoring the opinion of the proponents of a non-existent entity is not a double standard to me.

Who claims what, in this context, knowing that you’re only reading the bible, which is not God Himself, nor is it the Chronicler nor Saul? What would be the big deal even if they were both wrong?

If two Bible authors are wrong, then how many others might be wrong?

Even if they were all wrong, what consequence would it have on you?

1. Face reality - you’re just reading and posting biblical passages, which you misinterpreted, wittingly or unwittingly, as the word of God.

2. The word of God is the real and forever living Lord Jesus Christ, to whom we can only hear the pure and authentic words of God, across all generations, and from eternity to eternity.

If belief in Jesus doesn't come from the Bible, what's to stop anyone from making up their own Jesus?

I can’t believe that notion came from you!

If belief in Jesus doesn't come from the real and forever living Christ Jesus Himself [who is beside you all the time, though you don’t see Him], what's to stop anyone from making another Jesus of his own via the use of Bible verses?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to OneJack in post #42]

How could it be Samuel’s ghost when the woman with a familiar spirit was the one who called the ghost?

How can the author of the book be saying that it's not Samuel's ghost when the author himself refers to the ghost as Samuel?


The thing of envy - killing 100k instead of killing 10k?

Why not when the king’s personality, as a warrior and standard, is at stake?

Is that worth more than thousands of human lives?


It doesn't really matter if you believe in any other deity or not. If you wouldn't cut even a nonexistent deity the same slack for the same behavior, you're still setting a double standard.

Ignoring the opinion of the proponents of a non-existent entity is not a double standard to me.

What makes it a double standard is unequal treatment of the same behavior.


If two Bible authors are wrong, then how many others might be wrong?

Even if they were all wrong, what consequence would it have on you?

On me, none. Your position, on the other hand, would suffer considerably.

If belief in Jesus doesn't come from the real and forever living Christ Jesus Himself [who is beside you all the time, though you don’t see Him], what's to stop anyone from making another Jesus of his own via the use of Bible verses?

Are you arguing that people get a false picture of Jesus from the Christian Bible?

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe...."
(John 20:30-31)

[OneJack]

[post_id=1183462 time=1771646820 user_id=14379]
[Replying to OneJack in post #42]

How could it be Samuel’s ghost when the woman with a familiar spirit was the one who called the ghost?

How can the author of the book be saying that it's not Samuel's ghost when the author himself refers to the ghost as Samuel?

In this case, the Almighty God alone can absolutely identify ghosts, no one else can. Actually, ghosts are spirit beings.

The thing of envy - killing 100k instead of killing 10k?

Why not when the king’s personality, as a warrior and standard, is at stake?

Is that worth more than thousands of human lives?

Of course not to me, but to others like kings of the earth, I could say yes, remember Hitler?

It doesn't really matter if you believe in any other deity or not. If you wouldn't cut even a nonexistent deity the same slack for the same behavior, you're still setting a double standard.

Ignoring the opinion of the proponents of a non-existent entity is not a double standard to me.

What makes it a double standard is unequal treatment of the same behavior.

For as long that I am not sinning against God by such act, I’m at peace with everything.

If two Bible authors are wrong, then how many others might be wrong?

Even if they were all wrong, what consequence would it have on you?

On me, none. Your position, on the other hand, would suffer considerably.

How’s that? What position of mine are you referring to?

If belief in Jesus doesn't come from the real and forever living Christ Jesus Himself [who is beside you all the time, though you don’t see Him], what's to stop anyone from making another Jesus of his own via the use of Bible verses?

Are you arguing that people get a false picture of Jesus from the Christian Bible?

Don’t you see it? Bibliolaters, not Christians, divide Jesus by formulating/inventing different notions about Him (Jesus) through the use of biblical verses, hence, the various denominations today, around the globe. The ‘Bible of Christians’ is not the literal bible today, but Jesus Christ Himself.

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe...."
(John 20:30-31)

What is the point you’re trying to emphasize here?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to OneJack in post #44]

In this case, the Almighty God alone can absolutely identify ghosts, no one else can. Actually, ghosts are spirit beings.

You asked how the ghost could be Samuel. I provided textual evidence that the ghost was supposed to be Samuel.


Is that worth more than thousands of human lives?

Of course not to me, but to others like kings of the earth, I could say yes, remember Hitler?

Then how is David's killing by 100k to be envied?

What makes it a double standard is unequal treatment of the same behavior.

For as long that I am not sinning against God by such act, I’m at peace with everything.

There's such a thing as righteous hypocrisy?


Are you arguing that people get a false picture of Jesus from the Christian Bible?

Bibliolaters, not Christians, divide Jesus by formulating/inventing different notions about Him (Jesus) through the use of biblical verses, hence, the various denominations today, around the globe. The ‘Bible of Christians’ is not the literal bible today, but Jesus Christ Himself.

If you don't take the Bible's word for what Jesus was, then what valid argument do you have against the Quran's presentation of Jesus as a Muslim prophet or the Hindu concept of Jesus as an avatar of Vishnu? If you have no problem with all the Bible writers being wrong, how can you----with certainty----reject any extra-biblical concept of Jesus as wrong?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #36]

What's he supposed to do? Getting nothing is why he departs, according to the text. If Jehovah has decided to take the kingdom from Saul, he could tell Saul that as easily as Samuel does. He has multiple means and opportunities for doing so [dreams, Urim, prophets (1 Sam. 28:6)] and chooses not to. Even Samuel himself admits that (v.16).

This is certainly new: An unbelieving natural man, that doesn't believe in God, much less that God talks to man, is preaching on who God can and can't talk too. It's like atheists trying to tell Christians how to be Christian.

Can you really not fathom that it's possible to believe in God in ways other than your way?

Read my signature.

"The religious idea of God cannot do full duty for the metaphysical infinity."

Very metaphysical of you. Reminds me of the Timothy O'leary age of Aquarius Cosmic Christ.

1Jo 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Then you lecture on your metaphysical reality talking to you, and I suppose anyone who has cosmic ears to hear. But not about the God of Israel.

If you're going to find fault with the words of the Bible God, then your going to have to know His Spirit's will and doctrine first. I.e. study the Book, rather than just play superficial gotcha with words.

[RBD]

That doesn’t make sense, knowing that God is one and that He prohibits His people from engaging in such an act, inimical and detrimental to the harmonious relationship between him (Saul) and the Lord. Saul should have learned to be patient in waiting for the Lord’s response while he continued to show repentance for his unbecoming act, as a good servant.

1Sa 13:11
Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

And so, we already see that Saul was certainly not patient for the LORD's prophet, much less the LORD Himself.

[RBD]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

Saul put his last hope in the woman with a familiar spirit, instead of the Lord alone.

Which is why Saul spent so much time with the witch, after only a cursory appeal to the God, Whom he knew had forsaken him by his own wickedness.

Nice point, RBD!

1Sa 13:12
Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

We already see in 1 Sam 13, that Saul learned long ago to only go through the motions with the things of the LORD, rather than to seek Him from the heart.

This is why it's a benefit to honestly address any claim of error in the Bible, no matter how superficial the claim. The study necessary to refute it, produces knowledge of the spiritual things of the Bible, and not just about the words themselves.

[RBD]

The ‘Bible of Christians’ is not the literal bible today, but Jesus Christ Himself.

Well said. Very true. It's a fact that many Christian produce their own personal Christian Bible, by changing the words and meanings to fit their own Christian beliefs and religion.

The Jews did the same with the Torah, so that their law and traditions were so foreign to the Book of Moses, that they had the God of Moses condemned as a transgressor of Bible 'law'.

This is why we are warned to always look to the written Bible for the truth of God, and not just to the words and commentaries about it:

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


You are absolutely right to read the Bible as written by the one Author, Jesus Christ. Every word is red with His blood shed on a cross.

2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Psa 45:1
My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

His prophets and apostles were only pens in His hand, to write His words of Scripture.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #46]

If you're going to find fault with the words of the Bible God, then your going to have to know His Spirit's will and doctrine first. I.e. study the Book, rather than just play superficial gotcha with words.

If you're going to find fault with critical analysis of Bible text, you're going to have to do better than toss out whatever creative embellishment you can come up with (the resurrection accounts come to mind) and tell yourself that it's harmonization.