Number of Creation Accounts

[Difflugia]

In another thread, we have this assertion:

There are not two different creation accounts. Chapter one of Genesis gives us the outline of God's creation. Chapter 2 just fills in some details.

Question for debate: Are Genesis 1 and 2 two different creation accounts by two different authors, a unified account by a single author, or something else entirely?

[The Tanager]

That ‘deeper truth’ then seems to be a matter of interpretation rather than objective fact. If we are allowing for ‘metaphorical’ creation, then couldn’t the ‘deeper truth’ in fact be that the heavens and earth formed through natural processes rather than by the action of a deity?

Metaphorical language is still used in objective ways to mean something in particular, so it's not anything goes. I see no reason to think the author is using the language of God creating the world as a metaphor for God not playing a role in creating the world.

[Difflugia]

That ‘deeper truth’ then seems to be a matter of interpretation rather than objective fact. If we are allowing for ‘metaphorical’ creation, then couldn’t the ‘deeper truth’ in fact be that the heavens and earth formed through natural processes rather than by the action of a deity?

Metaphorical language is still used in objective ways to mean something in particular, so it's not anything goes. I see no reason to think the author is using the language of God creating the world as a metaphor for God not playing a role in creating the world.

I agree with The Tanager. It's appealing to read the metaphor as something that would offer us a way to reconcile modern science with a specific Bible story, but it seems unlikely that an author writing of a god's creative action would, at the same time, be subtly disclaiming the same god's power.

Regardless of the number of authors, I do think that both stories are metaphorical in essence. The authors aren't making claims about the specific actions of their god, but both make the point that their god is superior to the gods of Babylon.

The Babylonian creation story is of Marduk defeating Tiamat and creating our world from her body. The point of the first creation story is that Yahweh created the heavens and the earth from the chaos, by virtue of His dominion over the chaos; where Marduk needed to defeat the embodied chaos, Yahweh merely declared into existence the light and darkness, the firmament and the surface, the seas and the land. All of these were done literally by His divine, sovereign fiat.

Something that I find interesting about the first creation story is that the word usually translated as "the deep," tehom, is in the form of a name by Hebrew literary rules. The Spirit of God didn't just hover over the depths, but over Deep. Scholars argue over the relevance, but I think the choice of Yahweh beginning with tehom is a literary subversion of the Babylonian myth. It didn't matter to the author whether Yahweh literally shaped the chaos into our world, but that He is superior in all ways to the Babylonian myths that surrounded the exiled Israelites.

This is a bit more conjectural, but I think the second creation story involves a play on the Babylonian Bašmu. I won't belabor the story, but Yahweh clips the wings and legs of the dangerous Babylonian monster, humbling it to forever crawl on its belly.

[A Freeman]

The Creation account provided in Genesis 1 describes the creation of our PHYSICAL reality.

We are provided with a basic account of how light and dark, Heaven (the firmament) and the Earth, the moon and the stars, and the animals and finally the humans were created. And even why the Earth was created, for those paying attention (e.g. see: Gen. 1:6-8, where the "waters" are describing the people - Rev. 17:15, and Gen. 1:26, where we are told we are to be taught to be good, like God and the rest of the angels/spiritual-Beings of heaven).

Genesis 2 provides additional details about our physical reality, including our SPIRITUAL origin, where each of us are placed inside of a human, to become a human+Being.

Genesis 2:7 And the "I AM" God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became alive and was given a soul [spirit Being] (human+being).

It's very obviously NOT two different creation accounts. It's describing how our natural surroundings were created, including the humans, which had to be created before the spiritual-Beings (Souls) could be placed inside of them. And only after the souls had been placed inside of the humans could the lessons begin.

Genesis 2:15-17
2:15 And the "I AM" God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it (be good stewards of God's creation).
2:16 And the "I AM" God COMMANDED the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat*:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good (Truth) and evil (lies), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (in confusion).

*We are free to do whatever we wish, as long as it doesn't harm another or our natural surroundings - TRUE FREEDOM which is inexorably linked to PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #41]

…metaphorical renderings of the deeper truth they are trying to proclaim

What are the ‘deeper truths’ here? We have plenty of objective, scientific truths about how the Earth was formed but I don’t think you mean those.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #41]

…metaphorical renderings of the deeper truth they are trying to proclaim

What are the ‘deeper truths’ here? We have plenty of objective, scientific truths about how the Earth was formed but I don’t think you mean those.

No, I don't think the creation accounts are scientific textbooks offering scientific claims. I agree with Difflugia that one thing they are is a polemic against other creation account(s). Some of the bigger, deeper truths are: Yahweh as the creator of all, sovereign over an ordered world, who wants humans to rule with him, rather than humans being created as slaves so that the gods don't have to do work and can get the sacrifices they want.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #45]

To what extent does the fact that the Babylonian myth predate Genesis (and show several parallels with it) weaken the case for a singular god? Enuma Elish mentions over 300 separate gods in its entirety and that’s likely to be only a small portion of all named Babylonian gods. And the myth itself starts with Apsu and Tiamat as two ‘primordial beings’ - much like the yin and yang of Chinese philosophy (which could be even older). Very easy to draw parallels with the idea of ‘light’ being equal to but in opposition to ‘dark’.

[The Tanager]

To what extent does the fact that the Babylonian myth predate Genesis (and show several parallels with it) weaken the case for a singular god? Enuma Elish mentions over 300 separate gods in its entirety and that’s likely to be only a small portion of all named Babylonian gods. And the myth itself starts with Apsu and Tiamat as two ‘primordial beings’ - much like the yin and yang of Chinese philosophy (which could be even older). Very easy to draw parallels with the idea of ‘light’ being equal to but in opposition to ‘dark’.

I don't think it weakens the case for a singular god in any way whatsoever. If it did, then framing scientific data by the imagery of a machine after the rise of machinery would render the scientific claims false.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #47]

Sorry, I’m not sure I follow that line of reasoning. Could you perhaps state it another way?

[A Freeman]

How can anyone actually believe that the Babylonian creation account allegedly predates Genesis?

The very first chapter contains the coded explanation of WHY we were sent here, which is explained in greater detail in the Book of Revelation.

Genesis 1:6-8
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the "waters", and let it divide the "waters" from the "waters".
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the "waters" which [were] under the firmament from the "waters" which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the Second Day.

The word "waters" is a code-word for the PEOPLE.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The "waters" which thou sawest, where the "Whore" sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So the above passage is telling us that it was necessary to divide the people which were under Heaven from those which were above it.

And why was that necessary? Because the third of the people that were banished from Heaven to the Earth fought in a coup attempt overthrow Prince Michael/Christ in the war.

Revelation 12:3-4; 7-9
12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
12:4 And his tale (of lies - John 8:35) drew the third part of the "Stars" (ch. 9:1) of heaven (into his army), and did (cause them to be) cast to the Earth (for their treason against God): and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born (Christ - Second Coming).

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the Earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).

This should also explain why so many are so desperately trying to promote their aspects of the Babylonian mystery religion, like the very obvious myth/lie that the Babylonian creation account predates the first five books of the Bible, when it is the Babylonian account that borrows from the account in Genesis, and not the other way around.

IF someone accepts the validity of the Bible, then they have to accept its true, core teachings, which are discipline, self-sacrifice and personal responsibility for our actions. That's something that the ego/"self" can NEVER do.

Hence the desperate attempts to discredit the Bible, particularly the first five books which contain The Perfect Royal Law of Liberty that most here on Earth despise (preferring slavery, oppression and injustice, instead). And, of course, the first five books of the Bible also contain prophecies that have come to pass thousands of years after they were made, proving yet again that its origin is extraterrestrial, and that its content can be taken as FACT.

[Difflugia]

This should also explain why so many are so desperately trying to promote their aspects of the Babylonian mystery religion, like the very obvious myth/lie that the Babylonian creation account predates the first five books of the Bible, when it is the Babylonian account that borrows from the account in Genesis, and not the other way around.

Scholars date Genesis 1 (the P source) to the sixth century BC. We have tablets of the Enuma Elish that physically predate this by two centuries and scholars generally date the text itself to the early second millenium, before even traditionalists think Genesis was composed.

With that in mind, do you have any evidence beyond your own wishful thinking for why this is a "very obvious myth/lie?"