How exactly did Jesus resurrection happen❓

[The Nice Centurion]

If a world religion claimed that 2000 years ago someone built a time machine, then people would fall over their own feet to constantly ask: "How excactly did this time machine work?"

But now we have in the bible a a main protagonist resurrect from being dead and no one, neither Christian nor Sceptic ever, bothers to ask:
"How exactly did Jesus resurrection happen?"

Marvel fans are known to intensively debate questions like:
"How exactly does Spidermans power of sticking to walls and ceilings work?"

But no one on earth gives a damn about how exactly worked "The Resurrection"!


My first question for debate: Why is that so


Now lets first see what "resurrection" is supposed to mean.

First: A resurrected being in the bible is not undead like Count Dracula as a Vampyre, who has no biological bodily functions anymore and is kept undead alive by magic alone.

A truly resurrected being is supposed to have regained live and full biological bodily functions out of the state of being truly dead.
And he is therefore not being kept alive by magic alone, though magic m i g h t have triggered his resurrection.

Everyone agrees that Jesus is supposed to have been "really dead" ! By current medical definition that does mean already brain dead.

This is the state anyone must reach to honestly resurrect.
For we have semi dead people waking up from clinical death all the time and no one is claiming miracle of resurrection for them.

But lets see what naturally happens after brain death:
"Decomposition (of the brain) often occurs within minutes after death, which is quicker than other body tissues, likely because the brain is about 80% water. Rotting starts in normal ambient temperature at about 3 days, and the brain is essentially vaporized within 5-10 years."

Said all that we can begin trying to find out how Jesus resurrection might have happened in detail.

Bible gives a hint by intensively implicating that Jesus resurrection was triggered by magic.

Bible explains that Jesus died sometime P.M. during first day, was dead the whole second day and resurrected on third day before daybreak.
(Lets say he was dead for somewhat 36 hours.)

Now, said all that; What is possible?

Magic, as the Great Joe Quesada stated when he destroyed the Spiderman comic series for the fans, must not be explained.

But what that magic did do can be researched.

Did magic stop Jesus brain and therefore his body too from decomposing, kept it in a somewhat timeless state and make him arise 36 hours later?

Did Jesus naturally decompose and magic made him re-decompose later to let him be able to better resurrect?

And then we have still the problem that Jesus died supposedly on the cross because fatal hurts and woundings to his body caused his heart to stop.

How therefore did his body compensate this fatal wounds, to still be able to resurrect?

I will stop here explaining, starting the debate with the second and main question:


How exactly did Jesus resurrection happen

[AgnosticBoy]

And not one post until yet that dares to try proposing a theory how the mechanics of THE RESURRECTION might have worked.

In my search for such I raided the Internet; Also NADA.

And not one post until yet that dares to try proposing a theory of why that is so.

Instead we are debating UFO agnosticism and Mark 16 now.

Everything it takes if only the theme of mechanics of THE RESURRECTION can be fled from it seems . . .

We don't know how the resurrection happened. You claim that Christians are hiding from that question and I ask why do you think that? Does answering or a lack of answer mean that the resurrection didn't occur? We can't explain it (or even, it conflicts with the current scientific paradigm), therefore, it's false? That's what my responses to you touches on. My view is just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. So no, i wouldn't say Christians are dodging the question out of fear that it will invalidate the resurrection.

My point about UFOs is just an analogy to explain how scientists accepting that things exist or occur without being able to explain them. We have data (mostly observation based) that show that there are certain phenomenon in our skies that seem to defy the laws of physics. We frequently find them around military bases. That part we are not agnostic on - we have the observations. So in the same way, the resurrection seems to defy some laws of biology, BUT, we have good data that it has occurred in history. So following from my point about UFOs, wouldn't the historian, Christians, and non-believers be justified in accepting that the resurrection did happen even if we can't explain all of it? I'd say so (although the historian couldn't probe more into why the observation occurred, or how the resurrection happened since the event happened so long ago).

Basically, your topic is pointless if you intended to use it to take away from validity of the resurrection.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #41]

But the problem about UFOs is that (really ever since the Socorro saucer was Explained (believe it or not (1) the phenomena in the sky is Unexplained, not 'explained as spacecraft piloted by ET aliens). Science is right to reserve judgement until the phenomenon can be tested. It is the same problem with NDEs, alternative medicine, dowsing, anything in the Bible, really, and any alternative history,r alternative science and even alternative logic. That an explanation can be made up (even one that actually comports with science, let alone the data) does not make it to go -to hypothesis.

Science is skeptical and rightly so, and willing to admit it was wrong and rethink and rightly so. Religion is not, because it is Dogmatic (though of course it does evolve, slowly and grudgingly and pretends it's still the same).UFOs were Very malleable until the Spielberg film came out and now the Doctrine is clear on what ET aliens should look like. Greys are an alternative science doctrinal shibboleth and the less said the better about Venusian blondes, ET Lobsters, Robotic aliens and and even Bigfoot in UFOs, though whether as pilots, pets or an alternative to food replicators is not clear.

I must mention the african schoolkids case - last Big One before the craze sorta fizzled out. These kids saw a landed saucer with some occupants on top. UFO enthusia...investigators...turned up to ask for drawings. They cherry picked one that looked mot Alien grey like and ignored the others whee the drew African ritual masks and the like. None seemed to draw this saucer with anyone on top. They had in fact cherry picked the evidence to fit the Belief.

(1) essentially is was claimed to be a spoof aimed at officer Zamora whom a couple of lads had a beef with. The had an inflatable balloon with some cryptic signs on which they presumably let go, so it 'zoomed' into the sky. Now this could be an invented explanation but there's a change in the witness story - the oval 'saucer' was first vertical like an elongated balloon, but was later on made horizontal to sound more saucer -like. The original story had been fiddled but the initial version does sound like a balloon. Barney and Betty Hill were honest Betty was prompted (like abduction clients are prompted to concoct abduction - tales) by the interviewer and she was the one who came up with the recall -stories. Even Villas - Boas' fantasy sci - fi story has a practical inconsistency which suggests he might as well as invented (or imagined) it as he misremembered what happened. These three Biggies explained (as well as crop circles effectively debunked other than for the faithful and uninformed dupes, the UFOs craze and near cult seems over, generally.

[The Nice Centurion]

There’s no reliable test one can do to definitely prove you are dead, it’s a tricky thing. Best way to be certain someone is dead if when they no longer come back, anything other than that and you simply weren’t dead.
https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-ever-g ... er-you-die

Interesting; So people even returned from the state of having seemingly no brain functions because EEG is not all-wise.

We get semantic difficultys too. Resurrection from the dead is mainly meant to return from a state of no return.

But the momen someone mastrs it, then where leaves that the alleged state of impossible return?

And then there is the slight possibility that Longinus didnt carry with him his private EEG machine under the cross to measure Jesus Brain Signals.

So we should first too look into it how doctors back then diagnostized a state of death and no return.

Jesus also performed a miserable return. First mistaken for the gardener by close allies he then next encounter wades in the footsteps of Asklepios, copycatting him.

Instead of shaking hands with Emperor Tiberius he continues to play peekaboo with the three and the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon, . . . erm with his close allies.

And then off to space and Zarahemla it is. We no hear from Jesus further adventures again until Joseph smith starts to receive his bakers dozen of first visions.

If we could find out where Jesus fly off to, we could finally locate fabled Zarahemla.

LDS canon officially is cautious enough not to say that Z. was in Panama or America for sure.

LDS scientists also like to seek it at the coast of africa, china . . .


Not the easiest task is finding the ruins of old Zarahemla or finding out the exact state of death from what Jesus managed to awake.

[The Nice Centurion]

And not one post until yet that dares to try proposing a theory how the mechanics of THE RESURRECTION might have worked.

In my search for such I raided the Internet; Also NADA.

And not one post until yet that dares to try proposing a theory of why that is so.

Instead we are debating UFO agnosticism and Mark 16 now.

Everything it takes if only the theme of mechanics of THE RESURRECTION can be fled from it seems . . .

We don't know how the resurrection happened.

So you mean that "the resurrection" "happened" after all?
Where is your agnosticism. Is it still out celebrating new year?

You claim that Christians are hiding from that question and I ask why do you think that?

Already explained. I think so because I see it everywhere. And not a christian, but a common fear to speak about it.

Does answering or a lack of answer mean that the resurrection didn't occur? We can't explain it (or even, it conflicts with the current scientific paradigm), therefore, it's false? That's what my responses to you touches on. My view is just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. So no, i wouldn't say Christians are dodging the question out of fear that it will invalidate the resurrection.

OK. But if you want to refute TRANSPONDERS theory, you should give us an alternative theory.

Why do you think you cant explain the resurrection?
Why wont you even try it in this beautyful thread?

My point about UFOs is just an analogy to explain how scientists accepting that things exist or occur without being able to explain them. We have data (mostly observation based) that show that there are certain phenomenon in our skies that seem to defy the laws of physics. We frequently find them around military bases. That part we are not agnostic on - we have the observations. So in the same way, the resurrection seems to defy some laws of biology, BUT, we have good data that it has occurred in history. So following from my point about UFOs, wouldn't the historian, Christians, and non-believers be justified in accepting that the resurrection did happen even if we can't explain all of it? I'd say so (although the historian couldn't probe more into why the observation occurred, or how the resurrection happened since the event happened so long ago).

TRANSPONDER in post 42 explained why your analogy is bad. It is also destructive to the christian cause.

Therefore, to save your face for you, I pointed out that it looks like a diversion from my OP.

Basically, your topic is pointless if you intended to use it to take away from validity of the resurrection.

I didnt. I honestly wondered, and still will go to any lenghts to provoke answers here.

[TRANSPONDER]

Transponders' theory is not the only one. The induced swoon is a good one. Even a claim of an actual resurrection, natural or miraculous. For a fair while I thought the induced swoon was the one, but it was facing up to the resurrection of Lazarus (omitted from the synoptics) made me realise that a detailed and circumstantial account whcvh has clues of a faked and staged resurrection to convince the followers could still be misread and misunderstood as a real account of a faked miracle, but the lack of it in the synoptics made me face (reluctantly ) that it was not eyewitness or 2nd hand eyewitness but an invented story (1).

Thus, the 'induced swoon'( which is supported by clued in the accounts) was undermined by the contradiction, which for a long time I took it as mainstream ( ) viewpoint does - it was the same thing related from different views, and much is made of different eyewitness accounts of real events. So it isn't entirely out the window, but really - nobody but John knew of the tomb -guard or thought it was worth mentioning? That the Marys ran into Jesus on the way to the disciples, but in John when she reports to them she has no idea what has become of Jesus? Luke says nothing of that either, nor a trip to Galilee. I have heard some excuses, and they really require a desire that they should explain rather than they actually do. The 'Marys split up'is clever but made up. There is no such thing in the account. The realisation that no ending to Mark meant that there never had been one was suggested by a genius on my other board. It shook everything into place and made sense of all the problems, and I already knew that at least One nativity had been made up and (on evidence) both. Why not the Resurrections too? Since many debates, even more evidence of fabrication has come up, like realising that Luke amended his gospel to fit information from Paul, which the others hadn't known.

Since then, much has fallen into place. It has long been known that the Passover release is unknown. cue dismissal 'Nobody mentioned it'. But in all the ructions and arrests recorded in history, nobody called for anyone's release? Josephus never mentioned the custom? It was sorta an elephant in the room that it was invented, but why? One video (good series and I'm surprised it seems to have vanished) noted that Jesus and Barrabbas were the same person, but he went no further, and few ever got as far as that. But it will come, I Have Faith.

(1) just possibly based on a bald claim 'Jesus healed a young man' which possibly Luke picked up and turned into the son of the widow of Nain. Too long to do here, but the clues of similar events in different places and the idea of 'floating stories' explains much, like why we have a miraculous net of fish at the calling of disciples in Luke but after the resurrection in John. Transponder's theory accounts for it all.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #45]
But I was referring to Transponders theory according to the worldwide phenomena that no on wants to debate possible mechanics of THE RESURRECTION.
And the theory goes that christians cant risk making the ultraessence of christian belief blow up into their faces, while antichrists just cant make the time to look into it.

Barrabas sounds like fairytale invention to me; "So evil were the jews, that they rather let go free a convicted mass murderer than their own saviour!"
Yeah, sure!

But not even that sheds light on possible retunings from death.
Think it would be interesting to know what Richard Carrier meant when he wrote " modern scientists will master resurrection from death in near future!".

I will ask him that question and, with his permission, post his answer in this thread.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #45]
But I was referring to Transponders theory according to the worldwide phenomena that no on wants to debate possible mechanics of THE RESURRECTION.
And the theory goes that christians cant risk making the ultraessence of christian belief blow up into their faces, while antichrists just cant make the time to look into it.

Barrabas sounds like fairytale invention to me; "So evil were the jews, that they rather let go free a convicted mass murderer than their own saviour!"
Yeah, sure!

But not even that sheds light on possible retunings from death.
Think it would be interesting to know what Richard Carrier meant when he wrote " modern scientists will master resurrection from death in near future!".

I will ask him that question and, with his permission, post his answer in this thread.

I'm open to something that possible mechanisms might bring into the debate - it would by closed - minded to say it could bring no good debating -points, but I have to choose my battles and it looks to me like it would get nowhere especially if the event didn't happen at all, and that is where I deploy my forces.

p.s I believe that I read hat modern atomic physicists can transmute lead into gold, but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether the old alchemists could do it. Therefore, even if science could revive a dead body (they seem to come close to it already) that still leaves the resurrection event (assuming it even happened) as either a miracle, a mistake or a fake.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #47]
Still if there was a body which went missing while roman guards stood guard, then the roman guards either must have gambled at Pilates understanding )because him being such an extremely nice man) or else they would have told whomever arrives at the tomb and gets a peek, to tell no one and keep their mouths shut (Mark 16)!

About your reviving dead bodies, I have to add that I assume people back then didnt divide the states of clinical death and brain death.

I believe that clinical death counted as "really dead" up until the 19th century.

Now people return from clinical death sometimes and thats where the stadium of rot comes in.

But conveniently the gospels agree that no one saw Jesus rot, or Jesus rotten body.

He was taken from cross and hid in a cave and even guarded on.

These roman guards - they never would have gotten off the hook so easy if I would have been their Nice Centurion.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #47]
Still if there was a body which went missing while roman guards stood guard, then the roman guards either must have gambled at Pilates understanding )because him being such an extremely nice man) or else they would have told whomever arrives at the tomb and gets a peek, to tell no one and keep their mouths shut (Mark 16)!

About your reviving dead bodies, I have to add that I assume people back then didnt divide the states of clinical death and brain death.

I believe that clinical death counted as "really dead" up until the 19th century.

Now people return from clinical death sometimes and thats where the stadium of rot comes in.

But conveniently the gospels agree that no one saw Jesus rot, or Jesus rotten body.

He was taken from cross and hid in a cave and even guarded on.

These roman guards - they never would have gotten off the hook so easy if I would have been their Nice Centurion.

There are other possibilities. Namely, there was no tomb-guard at all. Only Matthew says anything at all about it and in dxcessive detail like he eavesdropped on what they did when they ran off. Why would matthew make it up?To argue that nobody could steal the body.

Another possibility. They were assisting the removal of the body. Whether they were Roman soldiers or Sanhedrin guards, Pilate and Arimathea had a reason. Pilate thought Jesus was innocent hand resented the way he's had his arm twisted to condemn Jesus and Arimatrhea was on the Jesus -team.There are clues that could be interpreted as a plan to save Jesus.

I have a problem with both as why not close the tomb afterwards? Then nobody would know.That for me is the significant clue - the tomb has to be open or there is not a scrap of evidence for a resurrection at all. That is why the story was invented.

So for me asking about the mechanism of how an alchemist turns lead into gold is wasted effort from my point of view, and so is the mechanism of a miracle that really isn't needed, only wanted by the believers.

By the way, unexpected revival of people thought to be dead was not unknown before the 19th c. And in the 19th c I have read, people were so concerned about this leading to being buried alive they had coffins fitted with a cord to a jingle -bell outside in case they woke up buried.

So I recall I did read, or did I (as Brian's mum says) 'dream it?'

[Tulipbee]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #1]

Ah, The Nice Centurion, the detective of divine mysteries! Grab your popcorn, folks, as we embark on the cosmic quest to unravel the enigma of Jesus' resurrection – the greatest mystery since Spiderman's wall-crawling abilities!

Now, our detective here poses a question that could make Marvel fans blush – "How exactly did Jesus' resurrection happen?" Move over, Spiderman, we've got a cosmic hero rising from the divine dead!

Our cosmic detective, armed with skepticism sharper than Thor's hammer, points out the curious lack of curiosity among Earthlings. If someone claimed to build a time machine, the inquisition would make the Spanish version look like a casual chat at a coffee shop. But Jesus rises from the dead, and people are as indifferent as a cat in a sunbeam.

Let's dive into the divine rabbit hole, where the resurrection magic show awaits. Our detective, ever the meticulous thinker, reminds us that a resurrected being isn't a brain-dead zombie; it's a biological marvel. Jesus, brain-dead by medical standards, faces the cosmic challenge of resurrection.

Now, did magic freeze Jesus' body like a cosmic popsicle, preventing decomposition? Or did magic orchestrate a cosmic decomposition and recomposition dance for the grand resurrection finale? Oh, the divine choreography!

And let's not forget the fatal wounds – the cosmic plot twist that even Marvel might envy. How does one resurrect when the script says the heart has hit its final beat? It's a divine soap opera, complete with suspense and a touch of otherworldly drama.

But, dear audience, the cosmic question lingers – how exactly did Jesus' resurrection happen? Was it a divine mic drop, a cosmic sleight of hand, or perhaps the ultimate Marvel crossover event?

The cosmic curtain rises, and the theological stage awaits your thoughts on the divine blockbuster – Jesus: The Resurrection Chronicles!