Is God evil?

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #34

Energy can't be created or destroyed but when it is dissipated across billions of lightyears of the ever-expanding universe because all the stars have died, there is nothing left to power organisms.

Then what powered organisms in the first place? Why do you insist on always ending on the entropy side of a potentially repeating cycle?

I am not convinced that biological organisms have souls. If you can prove the existence of souls, please do. Thank you.

I wasn't commenting on souls here. It was Ellison who said it, and I don't know if he believed in souls.

Our Sun, which is a star, powered the evolution and continuation of life on Earth. We have not yet found any life on any other planet or moon. When stars die out, and the geothermal activities of planets and moons stop, organisms won't be able to survive. Evidence indicates that we live in a universe that began with a Big Bang and is ever expanding. There is no evidence to support a repeating cycle. What would cause the repeating cycle?

Since Ellison used the word 'soul' instead of the word 'mind', I suspect he believed in the existence of souls. Billions of people do. I don't blame them. I used to believe, too.

[1213]

Why would they have done it anyway? Autotrophs would not feel any desire to eat anything. All-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful Adam and Eve would not be in a position to learn anything new as they were already all-knowing.

If it was about wanting to know something, they could have asked anything directly from God. If they were hungry, they could have eaten anything else. No, i don't think it was really about hunger for food or knowledge, it was for the woman about desire to become like God. And man did it to please the woman.

Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

What do you think of my definitions?...

I can accept your idea of what is free. Now we should also define what will means. I think will means to want something. I can want freely what ever I want. If I am not free to want anything I want, what do you think prevents me to want something?

[TRANSPONDER]

Why would they have done it anyway? Autotrophs would not feel any desire to eat anything. All-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful Adam and Eve would not be in a position to learn anything new as they were already all-knowing.

If it was about wanting to know something, they could have asked anything directly from God. If they were hungry, they could have eaten anything else. No, i don't think it was really about hunger for food or knowledge, it was for the woman about desire to become like God. And man did it to please the woman.

Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

What do you think of my definitions?...

I can accept your idea of what is free. Now we should also define what will means. I think will means to want something. I can want freely what ever I want. If I am not free to want anything I want, what do you think prevents me to want something?

From what I've seen, asking God for elucidation is on a par with getting reliable feedback by asking your cat, or garden gnome.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #35]

Thank you for sharing those thoughts and book/talk recommendations. I’ll check some of those out that I haven’t already.

I agree with you about the lack of certainty. The only things I know of that one can be certain about are definitions and pure mathematics. Everything else is less than certain and that’s okay. I see no problem in making choices based on what is more reasonable than alternatives. Scientific testing plays a very important role in many physical things, but there are other kinds of sources of reasonableness than that, especially since the reliability of science relies on philosophical beliefs being true. I think we can come to reasonable beliefs on what is objectively true.

I’m still not sure why you think the will is constrained/determined rather than just influenced. Your listed testing shows that our choices can be effected and influenced, but they aren’t evidence that our wills are determined/constrained. I’m aware of no research that makes a constrained/determined will the most reasonable position to take, but I’d love to hear a case for it.

As to love requiring free will, how would you define love? Why would you not distinguish “love” from “caring for” (or some other synonym)? It seems to me that we have people doing good things for each other with and without love. Some do it out of duty’s sake. My wife recently made me a wonderful breakfast for my birthday. There seems to be a difference to me if my wife willingly chose to do that for me because she wanted me to experience goodness and if she said “I have to because I’m your wife.” To me love, by definition, requires a free will. Otherwise, people are doing good because they have to (for whatever reasons).

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #35]

Thank you for sharing those thoughts and book/talk recommendations. I’ll check some of those out that I haven’t already.

I agree with you about the lack of certainty. The only things I know of that one can be certain about are definitions and pure mathematics. Everything else is less than certain and that’s okay. I see no problem in making choices based on what is more reasonable than alternatives. Scientific testing plays a very important role in many physical things, but there are other kinds of sources of reasonableness than that, especially since the reliability of science relies on philosophical beliefs being true. I think we can come to reasonable beliefs on what is objectively true.

I’m still not sure why you think the will is constrained/determined rather than just influenced. Your listed testing shows that our choices can be effected and influenced, but they aren’t evidence that our wills are determined/constrained. I’m aware of no research that makes a constrained/determined will the most reasonable position to take, but I’d love to hear a case for it.

As to love requiring free will, how would you define love? Why would you not distinguish “love” from “caring for” (or some other synonym)? It seems to me that we have people doing good things for each other with and without love. Some do it out of duty’s sake. My wife recently made me a wonderful breakfast for my birthday. There seems to be a difference to me if my wife willingly chose to do that for me because she wanted me to experience goodness and if she said “I have to because I’m your wife.” To me love, by definition, requires a free will. Otherwise, people are doing good because they have to (for whatever reasons).

How would we find out for sure if our choices are just influenced by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences or are actually determined by them?

The word 'love' has many meanings. Which one do you mean?

I am 100% certain that there are things that I can't do e.g. I can't go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths and make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and forever happy. As far as I can tell, no one else can do them either. Biological organisms are clearly constrained.

Alpha female meerkats murder the babies of other meerkats so that their own babies would have less competition. Selfish genes make selfish organisms. Humans have carried out horrific atrocities e.g. genocides, slavery, slave trade, torture, rape, robbery, fraud, theft, assault, intimidation, extortion, etc. We have outlawed these things but people still do illegal things and often get away with them, too. They also murder and exploit other species. If God is real and good why not prevent all of these evils? The fact that God failed to prevent all evil despite being all-knowing and all-powerful, makes him evil. With omniscience and omnipotence come omniculpability.

[The Tanager]

How would we find out for sure if our choices are just influenced by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences or are actually determined by them?

If one thinks the likelihood is 50/50 for either side, then I would side with (limited) free will over determinism because it is the simpler option. We appear, and act like, we have free will. The simplest answer is we do. Determinism is a more complex answer for it offers that we have determined/constrained wills as well as the illusion of (limited) free wills.

I am 100% certain that there are things that I can't do e.g. I can't go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths and make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and forever happy. As far as I can tell, no one else can do them either. Biological organisms are clearly constrained.

No one is saying there aren’t things we don’t have the power to do. That’s not what determinism vs. free will is about. Can you choose to ignore or help the homeless person you walk by? Why do you think decisions like those are determined/constrained?

Alpha female meerkats murder the babies of other meerkats so that their own babies would have less competition. Selfish genes make selfish organisms. Humans have carried out horrific atrocities e.g. genocides, slavery, slave trade, torture, rape, robbery, fraud, theft, assault, intimidation, extortion, etc. We have outlawed these things but people still do illegal things and often get away with them, too. They also murder and exploit other species. If God is real and good why not prevent all of these evils? The fact that God failed to prevent all evil despite being all-knowing and all-powerful, makes him evil. With omniscience and omnipotence come omniculpability.

I agree God is responsible for allowing such a world to happen. I don’t agree this makes God evil. Why not? My answer is the good of free will. To prevent all evils, God must do away with human (moral) free will. To do that does away with love. A morally perfect world without love isn’t as good a world as a world with love. The better choice, I think, is to make a world with free will, but to seek to bring humans into a truly loving community.

The word 'love' has many meanings. Which one do you mean?

What I think my wife had for me when she made me breakfast. She freely wanted to bless me for my good. She wasn’t doing it out of duty, or to manipulate me into doing something for her, but because of her love for me.

[Compassionist]

How would we find out for sure if our choices are just influenced by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences or are actually determined by them?

If one thinks the likelihood is 50/50 for either side, then I would side with (limited) free will over determinism because it is the simpler option. We appear, and act like, we have free will. The simplest answer is we do. Determinism is a more complex answer for it offers that we have determined/constrained wills as well as the illusion of (limited) free wills.

I am 100% certain that there are things that I can't do e.g. I can't go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths and make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and forever happy. As far as I can tell, no one else can do them either. Biological organisms are clearly constrained.

No one is saying there aren’t things we don’t have the power to do. That’s not what determinism vs. free will is about. Can you choose to ignore or help the homeless person you walk by? Why do you think decisions like those are determined/constrained?

Alpha female meerkats murder the babies of other meerkats so that their own babies would have less competition. Selfish genes make selfish organisms. Humans have carried out horrific atrocities e.g. genocides, slavery, slave trade, torture, rape, robbery, fraud, theft, assault, intimidation, extortion, etc. We have outlawed these things but people still do illegal things and often get away with them, too. They also murder and exploit other species. If God is real and good why not prevent all of these evils? The fact that God failed to prevent all evil despite being all-knowing and all-powerful, makes him evil. With omniscience and omnipotence come omniculpability.

I agree God is responsible for allowing such a world to happen. I don’t agree this makes God evil. Why not? My answer is the good of free will. To prevent all evils, God must do away with human (moral) free will. To do that does away with love. A morally perfect world without love isn’t as good a world as a world with love. The better choice, I think, is to make a world with free will, but to seek to bring humans into a truly loving community.

The word 'love' has many meanings. Which one do you mean?

What I think my wife had for me when she made me breakfast. She freely wanted to bless me for my good. She wasn’t doing it out of duty, or to manipulate me into doing something for her, but because of her love for me.

I disagree. We don't act like we have free will. We act like we have constrained will. At least, I do. I am not 100% sure anyone else even exists. You could be a simulation or an illusion. I have no way to verify your true nature.

Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

There have been times when I have donated money and food and gloves and other things to homeless people. There have been times when I have walked by without stopping. It was determined by whether I was in a rush or not. It was not freely chosen. Nothing is freely chosen. If I had the genes of an oak tree, I would not be having this discussion with you. If I was born 10,000 years ago, I would not be having this discussion with you.

I disagree with your belief about God's innocence. I think God is either evil and imaginary or evil and real. I can't decide which.

Your wife would not be loving you if she had the genes of a black widow spider. If she had the genes of a black widow spider, she would have happily devoured you after sex. She is not free from causality.

It's not my goal to convince anyone that I am right. I just find it interesting to see how others think.

[JehovahsWitness]

IS GOD EVIL?

If we take "evil" as the absence if goodness, then no, biblically God is not evil.




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[Thomas123]

Compassionist: "I think God is either evil and imaginary or evil and real. I can't decide which."

Thomas123: You want to know what other people think?
How does evil and imaginary work for you?

When God converses with the Devil(Evil), before persecuting Job, wilfully, he is portrayed in a Hellinistic way. They are having a philosophical debate about their man-puppet. God set up an obedience test for Adam in Genesis 1, and then punished him to do better in the future.

Kid yourself not! All this is imaginary, and all evil belongs to man. If there is an indefinable entity to which we appropriate the term God, then it is at the very least, objective in nature.(not man-centric)

Our own subjectivity has branded the realness of our existence as evil, our original mission was just to get on with it, but now we want to rationalise it.

We see our mortality and our vunerability and we do not want to accept it. We make it illogical?
Why is it illogical,that we suffer, strive and die to procreate our species like all other life forms?

Evil is a human thing. We use an external entity with an absence of all human weaknesses to monitor and contain our levels of perceived evil within us,....as God is my judge.
God only works if he/it is deemed 'as is',...ie everything at once, and real.

[Thomas123]

Is God evil?

As humans became aware of 'God', there began the formation of consensus about him/it. This evolving formation process has condensed into the great religions of this world, A consensus allows for worship among devotees of God. It is like a currency. God can be collectively used.

The consensus doctrines of all religions have been manipulated for evil. This is a fact.

There are other, benign agreements about God that are essentially , not evil in nature.
In the Judaic, Yahweh tradition their was the fundamental element of Kingship, of Master/Servant where you accepted your share as given and you were grateful for it. Your King in his wisdom decreed it so for reasons you were not privy to. There was respect, fear, gratitude and love within this apparent confinemement and servitude. The Jesus guy emphasised this alot, the idea of joy and Thanksgiving. Any sort of authority is viewed very differently today in 2023, where corruption and entitlement are the norm.if you had zero expectation from God then any good fortune might be considered manna from heaven.