If God wants to destroy evil...

[Zarathustra]

God created everything that has been, is, and is going to be in existence. He created the Earth and the Heavens. He created the Lake of Fire in which he casts sinners. He created Good, and He created evil. Does not the old adage says "I have created you, and so can I destroy you"?

If God wanted to, couldn't He, in theory, destroy evil with no need for the battle of the apocalypse?

[Zarathustra]

Exactly, The Happy Humanist, thank you for getting this thread back on track.

[Bro Dave]

The real bottom line here is, Hannah, that you are correct. We don't want to go to Heaven. We want no part of it. It sounds boring. And no, we won't ask God to change us, if he wants to he can do it right now if he so chooses. Maybe after he changed us we would feel differently, but for now, no thanks.

As far as your falling off a cliff analogy, as certain as you are that there is a God and a heaven, I am that certain that there is no such thing, and so I don't see myself as "falling off a cliff."

And again, if God can change us in Heaven, he can change us on earth, so there is no point to the whole sordid history of human trials and tribulations.

I hesitate to enter into this discussion, because I know you all will simply ignore what I share. However, it pains me to watch everyone make false presuppositions about God, and why He does not intervien in our condition. But, please allow me to try;

The reason God created us, was two fold;

First, being perfect, God would never experience becoming perfect through experiences that generate learning, culminating in wisdom and finally perfection.

Secondly, God was surronded with perfection, and perfect beings who loved him automatically.

By creating imperfect beings, God shares in our growth experiences, and offers His guidance, if we choose to ask. Also, as we emerge from our imperfection, we begin to recognise God's hand lovingly available to help us in better decisions. This leads to our loving God, because He first showed His love for us. This is a special loving relationship, based on free will choice, that could not be had any other way.

So, for God to interviene, would fly in the face of His very intent, when He created this universe, and his very imperfect children, brimming with the potential to become perfect in time.

I could go on, but that is a quick snapshot.

Bro Dave

[The Happy Humanist]

The real bottom line here is, Hannah, that you are correct. We don't want to go to Heaven. We want no part of it. It sounds boring. And no, we won't ask God to change us, if he wants to he can do it right now if he so chooses. Maybe after he changed us we would feel differently, but for now, no thanks.

As far as your falling off a cliff analogy, as certain as you are that there is a God and a heaven, I am that certain that there is no such thing, and so I don't see myself as "falling off a cliff."

And again, if God can change us in Heaven, he can change us on earth, so there is no point to the whole sordid history of human trials and tribulations.

I hesitate to enter into this discussion, because I know you all will simply ignore what I share. However, it pains me to watch everyone make false presuppositions about God, and why He does not intervien in our condition. But, please allow me to try;

The reason God created us, was two fold;

First, being perfect, God would never experience becoming perfect through experiences that generate learning, culminating in wisdom and finally perfection.

Secondly, God was surronded with perfection, and perfect beings who loved him automatically.

By creating imperfect beings, God shares in our growth experiences, and offers His guidance, if we choose to ask. Also, as we emerge from our imperfection, we begin to recognise God's hand lovingly available to help us in better decisions. This leads to our loving God, because He first showed His love for us. This is a special loving relationship, based on free will choice, that could not be had any other way.

So, for God to interviene, would fly in the face of His very intent, when He created this universe, and his very imperfect children, brimming with the potential to become perfect in time.

I could go on, but that is a quick snapshot.

Bro Dave

I'm sorry, Bro Dave, but I cannot imagine a Supreme Being, a being we are told is immense beyond human comprehension, transcendant, immanent, all-powerful, and perfect in all respects, needing or wanting for anything - including worship, love, or as you seem to describe, the learning experience of seeing what its like not to be perfect. That just does not compute. Either he is all-powerful - which means he doesn't need to have created this grand experiment in the first place, he could have just conjured up the results in his imagination - or he isn't the God of the Bible.

This is a very big part of why we atheists think the way we do. The deity you are holding out to us is very contradictory in nature, and our minds abhor contradiction.

[Arch]

I hesitate to enter into this discussion, because I know you all will simply ignore what I share. However, it pains me to watch everyone make false presuppositions about God, and why He does not intervien in our condition. But, please allow me to try;

The reason God created us, was two fold;

First, being perfect, God would never experience becoming perfect through experiences that generate learning, culminating in wisdom and finally perfection.

Secondly, God was surronded with perfection, and perfect beings who loved him automatically.

By creating imperfect beings, God shares in our growth experiences, and offers His guidance, if we choose to ask. Also, as we emerge from our imperfection, we begin to recognise God's hand lovingly available to help us in better decisions. This leads to our loving God, because He first showed His love for us. This is a special loving relationship, based on free will choice, that could not be had any other way.

So, for God to interviene, would fly in the face of His very intent, when He created this universe, and his very imperfect children, brimming with the potential to become perfect in time.

I could go on, but that is a quick snapshot.

Bro Dave

First I must object to obvious made up assumptions of what GOD thinks and Feels. There is not one bible verse to back such assumptions.

Secondly the bible says as far as the heavens are above the earth so are your GOD's thoughts above yours. So you can't understand her PERIOD.

Thats the whole basis of faith believing with out knowledge or full comprehension.

Thirdly, I have to agree with Happy Humanist . A GOD in need of anything including understanding or the experience of creatingnon perfect being to watch it go through hell for the purpose of spectating isn't the GOD talked about in the bible.

Finally if that is the case then we are all just a character in some terrible sitcom based on terror who are then condemed for being the character we were created. Sent to hell at the end of the show for simply being who we were created to be IMPERFECT.

Bro Dave I would have to say that the worst view on GOD I have seen yet.

[hannahjoy]

Arch wrote:

First I must object to obvious made up assumptions of what GOD thinks and Feels. There is not one bible verse to back such assumptions.

Happy Humanist wrote:

Either he is all-powerful - which means he doesn't need to have created this grand experiment in the first place, he could have just conjured up the results in his imagination - or he isn't the God of the Bible.

I think you're both making a mistake in assuming Dave is attempting to explain the God of the Bible. He has in the past explicitly rejected the Bible's statements about God, so he doesn't need Bible verses to back up his statements - they are made on his own authority.

Dave wrote:

I hesitate to enter into this discussion, because I know you all will simply ignore what I share.

As you neither support your statements from any authority other than your own, nor give any criteria by which we can judge the accuracy of your claims, there's not much anyone can say about them. Personal opinion may be interesting, but it's not really "debatable". How can we know if what you say is true?

Happy Humanist wrote:

As far as your falling off a cliff analogy, as certain as you are that there is a God and a heaven, I am that certain that there is no such thing, and so I don't see myself as "falling off a cliff."

I'm not quite ready to give this up, because you still haven't gotten my point. It's not whether you have figuratively "jumped off the cliff" or not, but whether or not you are really free. How would you know the difference between being free to do what you want, and being enslaved by your desires? The test of your freedom is when you resist. Try to consistently obey, of your own "free" will, someone whose commands are at odds with your desires, and then you will know if you are truly free.

I don't have an answer for all the trials of life, but I do know certain facts that may help to explain them to some degree.

1. Evil is the result of sin. This is true even of the natural world.
2. God is not responsible for sin. It is under His sovereign control, but He does not cause it.
3. God must destroy sin. He is too holy to allow it into His presence, and to be in heaven is to be in His presence.
4. God will not cleanse us from sin if we are not willing to be cleansed. He will change our wills if we submit to Him.
5. If we refuse to be cleansed, we must be destroyed along with sin. This is only logical - just as if your house was burning and you refused to leave it.
6. God does not want to destroy us. He does allow us to resist His will.
7. God is waiting to destroy evil in order to give men time to repent.
8. God sends trials in part to bring us to the point of being willing to be cleansed. This applies to Christians as well as non-Christians.

So to summarize - God is not responsible for sin, but He allows it, and in His sovereignty bring good out of it.

Hannah Joy

[bernee51]

I don't have an answer for all the trials of life, but I do know certain facts that may help to explain them to some degree.

Are these facts, Hanna Joy, or, like Daves proclamations, opinions. On what basis do you claim them to be facts?

Herewith, my opinions.

1. Evil is the result of sin. This is true even of the natural world.

There is no evil in the natural world. There are actions which are then given values of good or evil by humans. There is no sin in the natural world, sin requires a god to sin against. As god, if it existed, is by definition a supernatural being, it would be non-existent in the natural world. There is no god to sin against in the natural world. There is no sin in the natural world.

2. God is not responsible for sin. It is under His sovereign control, but He does not cause it.

Of course he is, it says in the bible that god created evil. By you own standards "evil is the result of sin". Ergo in the act of creating evil god is a sinner.

3. God must destroy sin. He is too holy to allow it into His presence, and to be in heaven is to be in His presence.

God should destroy his own creation? Begs the question - why create it in the first place?

7. God is waiting to destroy evil in order to give men time to repent.

An all powerful ,all loving god would not allow us to sin. He would make us all believers. Thus the Argument from non-belief is sure evidence of god's non existence.

8. God sends trials in part to bring us to the point of being willing to be cleansed. This applies to Christians as well as non-Christians.

All life is suffering, the root of suffering is attachment. There is a path to non attachment. This applies to all sentient beings (even christians).

So to summarize - God is not responsible for sin, but He allows it, and in His sovereignty bring good out of it.

How can god create sin and not be responsible? Such action is the height of irresponsibility.

[hannahjoy]

There is Bible behind what I posted which I just didn't have time to include. If you want to know what the Biblical perspective is, I will post the verses, but as long as you're just repeating your opinions, I don't see much point in discussing it. This thread starts from the standpoint of the Bible's teaching, so it would seem to be legitimate to look for the answers there rather than in one person's opinion.

From the first post:

God created everything that has been, is, and is going to be in existence. He created the Earth and the Heavens. He created the Lake of Fire in which he casts sinners. He created Good, and He created evil. Does not the old adage says "I have created you, and so can I destroy you"?

If God wanted to, couldn't He, in theory, destroy evil with no need for the battle of the apocalypse?

Hannah Joy

[Bro Dave]

="Arch" First I must object to obvious made up assumptions of what GOD thinks and Feels. There is not one bible verse to back such assumptions.

God is not described in the Bible. Or, at least not accurately described. The pictures offered there are so contridictory, that it leaves one's head spinning!

Secondly the bible says as far as the heavens are above the earth so are your GOD's thoughts above yours. So you can't understand her PERIOD.

That you would attribute a physical sex to God, is mildly humorous, except that I suspect you may actually believe at that level

Thats the whole basis of faith believing with out knowledge or full comprehension.

So, how do you know when to stop believing because what is being said violates all common sense, and is an affront to the loving nature of God?

Thirdly, I have to agree with Happy Humanist . A GOD in need of anything including understanding or the experience of creatingnon perfect being to watch it go through hell for the purpose of spectating isn't the GOD talked about in the bible.

Please understand, what I offered, is hardly the all encoumpassing bottom line as to why God did/does anything. It simply is a partial view that is understandable at our level at present. You don't start teaching your children Calculas in kindergarten!

Finally if that is the case then we are all just a character in some terrible sitcom based on terror who are then condemed for being the character we were created. Sent to hell at the end of the show for simply being who we were created to be IMPERFECT.

The "terrible sitcom" is a pretty good discription... of Christianity's view!
There is no "hell", as it would serve NO purpose. God created us imperfectly so as to share our experiences with us, not to punish us for being imperfect. Christians simply are in love with the idea of hell. They wave it around in a threatening way to force compliance with the rest of their views. Sad. Jesus was so loving, and taught only positive ways to live. Y'all really should study what Jesus said, and forget about Paul.

Bro Dave I would have to say that the worst view on GOD I have seen yet.

LOL! Actually, what you saw, was your own purposefully distorted and defaced picture of our loving parent. The picture I offered, is one of a loving parent, who wishes only the very best for his growing children. No hell, to blood sacrifices to keep him happy. Just a loving Father, who want his kids to love each other. Is that so terrible?

Bro Dave

[Bro Dave]

I think you're both making a mistake in assuming Dave is attempting to explain the God of the Bible. He has in the past explicitly rejected the Bible's statements about God, so he doesn't need Bible verses to back up his statements - they are made on his own authority.

I'm falttered, but you give me too much credit. I only share the beautiful understanding available to anyone who looks for, and finds God within. I also, I must confess, love that this view is so clearly expressed in the Urantia Book.(which I also did not write )

Dave wrote:

I hesitate to enter into this discussion, because I know you all will simply ignore what I share.

As you neither support your statements from any authority other than your own, nor give any criteria by which we can judge the accuracy of your claims, there's not much anyone can say about them. Personal opinion may be interesting, but it's not really "debatable". How can we know if what you say is true?

We were given Jesus' Spirit of Truth when he left us here. If you choose to listen, that which is true for you, will ring with clarity in your soul. That is how you will know. And no, it is not on my authority that I speak. God continually sends his children all the understanding they are capable of handling. His latest offering, The Urantia Book is simply a continuation in that process. Jesus brought us the last offering.

Bro Dave

[bernee51]

There is Bible behind what I posted which I just didn't have time to include. If you want to know what the Biblical perspective is, I will post the verses, but as long as you're just repeating your opinions, I don't see much point in discussing it. This thread starts from the standpoint of the Bible's teaching, so it would seem to be legitimate to look for the answers there rather than in one person's opinion.

The bible, however, can not be shown to be anything more than someone's opinion. Your interpretation as to what your favoured verses actually mean is an opinion based on someone else's opinion.

Besides, quoting verses is not 'discussing it'.

As to your claim regarding the first post...the koran makes a very similar statement, as do Hindu texts. Why do you assume the original poster, an atheist, was speaking from a biblical viewpoint. He does not mention the bible.