"Slavery" in the Bible

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"Slavery" in the Bible

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Allow us readers to be very careful. We must make sure we identify the proper context here, to assure against hasty and/or self-serving conclusions.

Exodus 21:2-3:

"2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him." <-- Okay, this seems clear enough, if you are a purchased Hebrew, with a wife, you are both to go free in year 7. :ok:

Exodus 21:4:

"4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." <-- Here is where things start to look sketchy for the modern-day believer. If the slave is provided with a wife, and they have kids, the wife and kids are to stay with the slave master. They are not to go free.

Exodus 21:5-6:

"5 "But if the servant declares, I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free, 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." <-- More uncomfortability for the Christian here. Without getting into the weeds, common sense suggests a special rule is made to trick the male Hebrew into remaining a slave for life.

Leviticus 25:44-46:

"44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." <-- More awkwardness for the believer, as the Bible reader clammers to find a rationale to make this passage not read the way it does.

Here is a basic definition of chattel slavery --> "Chattel slavery is full slavery in its traditional form whereby slaves are the complete property of their master, can be bought and sold by him and treated in any way that he wishes, which may include torture and other brutality, excessively bad working conditions, and sexual exploitation"

Looks like all the ingredients fit the given Bible description here, minus the torture. Wait a minute, this is covered in the rest of Exodus 21. (i.e.):

"20 "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." <-- So basically, since the slave is your property, beatings with impunity are acceptable. Just don't kill them.

For debate:

By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery?

Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves?

************************

Before you answer, consider this.... Since the NT does not mention the abolition of 'slavery', and yet the Bible makes further proclamation(s) and/or addendums (in favor of retaining 'slavery',) this means the Bible is not against chattel slavery either. Further, the Christian may want to introduce the importance of the 'golden rule'. However, the specifics outweigh the generals. The specifics of the rules for engagement of slavery are outside the 'golden rule'. Otherwise, the Bible would be a one-pager. 'Slavery' is an expressed exception to the general rule. Thus, anytime a specific scenario is not invoked, yes, 'golden rule.'
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #311

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 2:05 am
POI wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 1:43 pm ...
You do understand that exceptions exist to many general rules, right?
Yes
:approve:
1213 wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 2:05 am But why do you think you are the God,
I'm not claiming to be a god. Just like you are not claiming to be a god when you explain Bible verses. Translating text does not make you, or me, or anyone a god 1213. I'm simply pointing out verses which are the exceptions to the general rule(s). And in these cases, one does not even need to apply hermeneutics to understand that such exceptions to the 'golden rule' and 'kidnapping' exist. And I've pointed them out to you.
1213 wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 2:05 am I want to be loyal to Jesus and God and live by their teachings, not yours.
By applying a plain reading of the text, the Bible teaches that chattel slavery, against one's will, is absolutely okay, in certain situations. :ok:

I guess the takeaway for you 1213 becomes, how do you reconcile a book which advocates for such exceptions, since you obviously do not advocate for such exceptions?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #312

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 8:12 am ...I'm simply pointing out verses which are the exceptions to the general rule(s). ...
And if Bible doesn't say there is an exception to a certain rule, then there is no exception.

Bible allows slavery with certain conditions. And one of the conditions is "love your neighbor". It is very simple matter, if one remains in truth.
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

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Post by POI »

According to Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25, certain folks can be held against their will. A plain reading expresses this reality 1213. Some men, women, and children have no say in their own welfare.
1213 wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:50 am
POI wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 8:12 am ...I'm simply pointing out verses which are the exceptions to the general rule(s). ...
And if Bible doesn't say there is an exception to a certain rule, then there is no exception.
The Bible does list exceptions. You are just outright ignoring them:

-- The female is not to ever go free, but the males can. (Ex. 21)
-- The offspring are to remain with the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- The father can give the daughter to the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- Beatings, for life, to the back side of a slave are perfectly fine (Ex. 21)
-- Foreigners can be bought and sold and are to remain as property for life. (Lev. 25)
1213 wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:50 am Bible allows slavery with certain conditions. And one of the conditions is "love your neighbor". It is very simple matter, if one remains in truth.
We both already agreed that exceptions can exist to general rules. 'Love your neighbor' is a general rule. (5) expressed exceptions are listed above, as they pertain to the specifics of "slavery". This means the Bible God thinks the (5) above specific rules are good! Do you?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #314

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:12 am According to Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25, certain folks can be held against their will. A plain reading expresses this reality 1213. Some men, women, and children have no say in their own welfare.
The problem with that is, Bible doesn't say one can keep them against their will. It is only your interpretation, which I think is wrong, because it goes against the second highest commandment to love ones neighbor.
POI wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:12 amThe Bible does list exceptions.
No it doesn't. All of the rules can be kept without ignoring the "love your neighbor" part, which sets the limits to all lesser rules. Bible doesn't say that you can ignore the commandment, it is just your own idea. And there is no good reason to accept your rules.
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

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Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:12 am
POI wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:12 am According to Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25, certain folks can be held against their will. A plain reading expresses this reality 1213. Some men, women, and children have no say in their own welfare.
The problem with that is, Bible doesn't say one can keep them against their will. It is only your interpretation, which I think is wrong, because it goes against the second highest commandment to love ones neighbor.
You are completely ignoring everything you and I have both already agreed upon. Specifics outweigh generals (and) exceptions exist to generals. As my OP stated, if no exception is stated to the golden rule, then yes, follow the golden rule.

Case/point: See this verse: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do." Can the woman go free if she wants to? NO! This means she is held against HER will. Hence, the golden rule does not apply to her. in this instance

Case/point: See this verse: "the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." Can these folks simply go free, if they want to? NO! This means these folks are also held against THEIR will.

Case/point: See this verse: "they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life," Can these folks leave if they simply want to? NO! This means these folks are held against THEIR free will.
1213 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:12 am No it doesn't. All of the rules can be kept without ignoring the "love your neighbor" part, which sets the limits to all lesser rules. Bible doesn't say that you can ignore the commandment, it is just your own idea. And there is no good reason to accept your rules.
No 1213. You now have yourself in a pickle. The Bible instructs passages which violate one's own will. If you choose to ignore all of them, to only follow the golden rule, then you are also choosing to ignore God's word. So either accept that many exceptions exist to general rules, or demonstrate that you are indeed a cafeteria Christian, by picking and choosing what you adhere to...

Third request:

-- The female is not to ever go free, but the males can. (Ex. 21)
-- The offspring are to remain with the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- The father can give the daughter to the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- Beatings, for life, to the back side of a slave are perfectly fine (Ex. 21)
-- Foreigners can be bought and sold and are to remain as property for life. (Lev. 25

This means the Bible God thinks the (5) above specific rules are good! Do you?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

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Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am ....Specifics outweigh generals (and) exceptions exist to generals...
That is what you say, not what the Bible tells.
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 amSee this verse: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do." Can the woman go free if she wants to? NO! This means she is held against HER will. Hence, the golden rule does not apply to her. in this instance
Not going free as male servant goes, does not mean can't in any case go free. Also, even if person can't go free by his or her own demand, it does not mean the owner can go against the love your neighbor part. If the slave asks to go free, the owner should let the person go free.
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am Case/point: See this verse: "the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." Can these folks simply go free, if they want to? NO! This means these folks are also held against THEIR will.
That the person can't do it just by own decisions, doesn't mean the owner can go against the golden rule.
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am Case/point: See this verse: "they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life," Can these folks leave if they simply want to? NO! This means these folks are held against THEIR free will.
No it doesn't. It means only that they can't go just by their own decision.
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

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Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:22 am
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am ....Specifics outweigh generals (and) exceptions exist to generals...
That is what you say, not what the Bible tells.
I've explained ad nauseum. I can no longer help you. You either refuse to acknowledge or continue to not understand. There exists no third option here, as you have acknowledged that exceptions exist to rules and also that specifics outweigh generals. I've produced the verses which demonstrate both the exceptions and specifics.
1213 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:22 am
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 amSee this verse: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do." Can the woman go free if she wants to? NO! This means she is held against HER will. Hence, the golden rule does not apply to her. in this instance
Not going free as male servant goes, does not mean can't in any case go free. Also, even if person can't go free by his or her own demand, it does not mean the owner can go against the love your neighbor part. If the slave asks to go free, the owner should let the person go free.
Wow! You are really trying to twist stuff here. The entire point here is to demonstrate that the enslaved do not have their own will. Hence, they can be enslaved against their will. Their well-being depends on the will of another. Hence, your prior point has been completely debunked. Further, as I've stated, also ad nauseum, exceptions and specifics exist to the general golden rule. I've laid out five from Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25.
1213 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:22 am
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am Case/point: See this verse: "the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." Can these folks simply go free, if they want to? NO! This means these folks are also held against THEIR will.
That the person can't do it just by own decisions, doesn't mean the owner can go against the golden rule.
Rinse/repeat. See above.
1213 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:22 am
POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 am Case/point: See this verse: "they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life," Can these folks leave if they simply want to? NO! This means these folks are held against THEIR free will.
No it doesn't. It means only that they can't go just by their own decision.
BINGO! And if the decision is made that the master wants to keep their cheap labor, then the Bible endorses this action too: i.e.:

"You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life"

***************************

4th request:

-- The female is not to ever go free, but the males can. (Ex. 21)
-- The offspring are to remain with the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- The father can give the daughter to the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- Beatings, for life, to the back side of a slave are perfectly fine (Ex. 21)
-- Foreigners can be bought and sold and are to remain as property for life. (Lev. 25)

This means the Bible God thinks the (5) above specific rules are good! Do you?
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #318

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:05 am ...you have acknowledged that exceptions exist to rules and also that specifics outweigh generals....
Please tell where I have said that?
POI wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:05 am...can be enslaved against their will...
I say, they can't go just by their own decision. It is not the same as can be kept against their will. If one goes by the golden rule, he will not keep people as slaves against their will. Bible doesn't say there is exceptions to the golden rule, therefore there is no exceptions to that. All the rules must be taken with the golden rule, which sets limits to the other rules.
POI wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:05 am ...the Bible God thinks the (5) above specific rules are good! Do you?[/color]
They are good only if one takes also the golden rule. If you cherry pick only the rules you like, it is not good.
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

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1213 wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:09 am I say, they can't go just by their own decision. It is not the same as can be kept against their will. If one goes by the golden rule, he will not keep people as slaves against their will. Bible doesn't say there is exceptions to the golden rule, therefore there is no exceptions to that. All the rules must be taken with the golden rule, which sets limits to the other rules.
I've addressed this dozens of times now. You are either ignoring everything I have said, or you still do not understand.
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:09 am
POI wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:05 am ...the Bible God thinks the (5) above specific rules are good! Do you?[/color]
They are good only if one takes also the golden rule. If you cherry pick only the rules you like, it is not good.
I have cherry picked nothing. Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25 explains the exceptions and specifics to the general rule. This means you agree that the (5) given Bible exceptions/specifics are good. Thanks! :approve: (i.e.):

-- The female is not to ever go free, but the males can. (Ex. 21)
-- The offspring are to remain with the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- The father can give the daughter to the slave master for life. (Ex. 21)
-- Beatings, for life, to the back side of a slave are perfectly fine (Ex. 21)
-- Foreigners can be bought and sold and are to remain as property for life. (Lev. 25)
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #320

Post by Purple Knight »

POI wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:00 amThe Bible instructs passages which violate one's own will.
I actually do not see this as the case because all slaves can try to run away or even hurt or kill their masters. It's no more a violation of free will than the commandment against murder.

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